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Thread: Is this a Dagor?

  1. #1

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    Is this a Dagor?

    I have come across a very old lens from Zeiss. Engraved on both top and bottom of lens barrel in italics is "Zeiss Patent 16 1/2 In" with '3331' on front cell and '3332' on back cell. Engraved on body is "C.P.Goerz Berlin DRP No 79541" and a 'Z & M'.

    I have done some reseach and it seems that this lens was made in 1902-1903, before Goerz was absorbed into Zeiss. I am not quite certain that this is a Dagor lens, even my gut feeling tells me it is indeed a Dagor. My doubt comes from the fact that Goerz made the same length Artar lenses at the same time.

    The seller couldn't help me either. Anybody can enlighten me on this? Thanks.

  2. #2
    Whatever David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    What's the maximum aperture? Dagors of that length tend to be f:7.7, and Artars are usually f:9 in that size if I remember correctly.

  3. #3

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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    David,

    There is no other words as far as I know. I have a 16 1/2 Artar already.

  4. #4

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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    Those lens cells look "Dagor-esque" don't they? That shutter is odd. It is probably trash, as worn looking as it appears to be.

  5. #5
    All metric sizes to 24x30 Ole Tjugen's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    Could it be a Zeiss Doppelprotar in a Goerz shutter?

    Rather - with that age, it would be a Doppelanastigmat, not a Doppelprotar. that could be why they didn't put "Zeiss Anastigmatlinse Serie IV" or something on each of the cells - it's just too long!

    Oh no - I just realised the focal length is in inches! That means it's made by either Ross (UK) or B&L (USA). My gut feeling says B&L, since Ross seems to have put very much effort into having their own name on everything.

    Also, the 16 1/2 In focal length refers to each cell, not the combined lens. Since 16 1/2" is 419mm, that could mean it's a Serie IV, 2x 43cm for a combined 250mm f:6.3 - or a Serie VII, 2x 41cm for a combined 230mm f:6.3 (assuming both cells are the same focal length).

    HOWEVER: C. P. Goerz at the same time made the "Pantar" with 42cm cells, combined to 241mm f:6.3... But there was no "Zeiss patent" on that, much to Zeiss' disappointment.

  6. #6

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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    The cells look identical to my dagor, but there's no way of knowing without literal comparison

  7. #7

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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    Time to get out the penlight in a dim room. shine it in the individual cells and count refelctions. 2 brights and 3 dims is a protar type, 2 brights and 2 dims is a dagor type. Actually Uli will point out that the reflections don't prove it's either, but we'll argue that since it has both zeiss and goerz names on it, it's probably one or the other. Either way it's very likely quite a useable lens on the ULF.

  8. #8

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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    Ole,

    The name "Dagor" was used around 1904. So this lens was made before that. Goerz started to make Artar lenses after 1904, so this one is not likely to be an Artar. According to what I have found from Graflex site, a Dagor lens marked Goerz Berlin will be pre-merger. So it is very likely indeed a Dagor made by Zeiss under the patent of Goerz in Germany before 1904.

    It does look like a Dagor. I have a few Dagors of 7", 9 1/2", 10 3/4, 12" and 14" length.

    Jim,

    Surely I need one for my upcoming 16x20 Chamonix.

  9. #9
    All metric sizes to 24x30 Ole Tjugen's Avatar
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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Zhang View Post
    ...So it is very likely indeed a Dagor made by Zeiss under the patent of Goerz in Germany before 1904...
    That's extremely unlikely. Zeiss would make Protars, not Dagors - the "Serie IV" I mentioned above was almost a straight copy of a Dagor. A 1904 Goerz Dagor would be marked "Goerz Doppel-Anastigmat Serie III D.A.G.O.R." - I happen to have one right here.

    There's also the little fact of there being an inscription on BOTH cells, and that they have different serial numbers. That leads to a convertible or "Satzobjektiv" - which could be a Protar IV or VII (Zeiss) or a Pantar (Goerz), but never a Dagor. Not even the Zeiss Doppel-Amatar (yet another Dagor copy, but later and better) had this feature.

    And then there's the "In." focal length. That was definitely never used in Germany!

    BTW, what's the approximate focal length of the combined lens? 230-250mm?

  10. #10

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    Re: Is this a Dagor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Tjugen View Post
    That's extremely unlikely. Zeiss would make Protars, not Dagors
    Why not? One of my favorite lenses is a 18cm f/9 Zeiss Dagor. It's not a Protar for sure. I have a 69cm Zeiss Protarlinse VII and a 46cm Zeiss Protar V whose front and back cells have identical numbers.

    I should have the lens in my hands soon and I will find out. I really need a 16 1/2" Dagor and I hope I won't be disapppointed.

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