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Thread: For film the bell tolls

  1. #31
    Timo artedetimo's Avatar
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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Digital is just another tool to add to our tool box. It's progress. We all have more options now, and that is good. Now on to the important questions about education and the future...

    My original degree is a BS in physics 10 years ago. When I was studying physics this topic was a roaring debate; fundamentals or career training. In the working world it might be considered useless, but earning that degree trained me with many skills that have allowed me to be employed in a wide range of fields from IT to teaching, to software etc. Physics trained me to be rational and disciplined. It allowed me to maintain opposing lines of thought; gave me a good knowledge of math and a good sense of how the physical world works. I also learned how to find tools or develop them when they don't exist, and use them to achieve an end result. This is what a fundamental education offers and should be about.

    Training in the arts should focus on this sort of fundamental education. While studying physics the professor/adminstrators I talked to said that funding was the new pressure. Academia had been a safe haven (in physics during the cold war, funding was unlimited), but now schools had to market to students because that is how they assured funding. And when they had to please students, who by the very definition don't know what they are supposed to learn, the schools ended up in a bad situation. They lost control of deciding what was important to teach and therefore to know. Academia went from a leader in imparting knowledge, ideally above the nonsense of trends and speculation, to yet another institution under market forces. The result was that the percentage of US educated PhD students in Physics dropped to almost nothing, with Eastern European students filling most of the slots. Of course major universities were somewhat immune because their prestige guaranteed them the money they needed to set the terms of their educational systems.

    Provided I am on the left bay on the left coast, but the educated people I meet and talk to seem to recognize the difference and are concerned by this lack of emphasis on fundamental education at all levels of school. But those same people are often driven to act against this realization. The issue runs deep, all the way to the core of the country if you ask me, and plays itself out in all of our institutions. We are in a struggle against some large pressures and problems. Can we continue to build on our past and prosper with the freedom and knowhow to do great new things, or are we destined to fade away into a winner take all business first mentality. Digital v. film; slow and thoughtful v. deadlines and efficiency; creativity v. trend conformity; its all part of the same struggle.

    So to steer back to photo; I am now in a photography program at a state university, and I was in a contemporary photography class last week when this topic came up. The school was deciding how to redesign its curriculum to keep up with the digital times. Our teacher, who is on the board of directors in the department was reminded after a discussion with the class that the fundamental role of a university is to give students a fundamental education not train them for a job. The class unanimously made the case for keeping wet darkroom work at the beginning and all levels. We all agreed that we were better off in our creative endeavors for having digital tools, but that the main reason we were sitting in that class was because of learning wet film techniques. We knew that darkroom experience is what gave us the knowledge to understand photography at a deeper level.

    Unfortunately the department is cutting wet darkroom work out of all beginning classes. But in their defense they are seeming to take on the attitude that teaching students how to make an image is separate task than teaching students how to make a photograph. Hopefully they maintain booth of those goals in the new curriculum.

    So here's my 2 cents worth of suggestions:
    If you have a darkroom, bring people into it and show them how it works and give them time to work in it. The more adults and young people who experience the creative process first hand, the more advocates you can create. It may be subversive to tell a teenager, or their parents, that their high school, or any school, can't give them a nurturing creative education they need, but if you can foster the proper growth of a creative mind then it is worth it. My aunt, an artist, along with the rest of my family did so for me after my unsuccessful stint in physics, which is a big reason why I am back in school in photography.

    Document how you work and what you learn. Write letters and notes about your experiences, and add the language of your creations to the dialogue. Actually picking up a pencil and moving it on paper with your hand goes a long way toward preserving your thoughts. The more complete and diverse pictures of the photographic art and craft we can preserve and pass on, the more likely it will survive. People become interested because of personal connections, so make your projects personal as well as logical. (hand written contact sheet postcards and birthday cards etc.) Show the world what your process has to offer not just tell them.

    The first place I try to evoke change in society is with myself.

  2. #32

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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Black & White has diminished considerably in the public's needs over last 15 years. In the early 90s fine art color printing was flawed with only Cibrachrome through optical enlarger processes easily available. All in the hands of commercial labs and pricy. Pretty much only small color prints except for those with LF. No wonder serious pros selling prints were mainly interested in black & white and all the traditional wet room processes being taught at colleges. When drum scanners, EverColor, Lightjet5000, and Durst-Lambda machines with Photoshop made their appearance a decade ago, color fine art printing began to rapidly move to be a viable artform that quickly made inroads on black & white that has continued to shrivel. The advent of digital cameras with enough megapixels to rival 35mm then made serious inroads on all film cameras and especially so with 35mm. Today it isn't surprising B&W and its darkroom processes have diminished interest with younger photographers learning basics for their future. Of course many of them have grown up in the age of personal computers and the internet so already have a background in digital that is only natural. Camera equipment ads in all the media the last few years have undergone an amazingly radical change to digital cameras such that one ought not be surprised film processes suffer in the younger publics awareness. And further there are far more people taking up photography today than any time in the past such that it is these new users that numerically dominate the ranks of both the serious and hobbyists. Here at the higher end of LF film there currently is an oasis of highest quality that retains strong advantages but with continued breakthroughs in imaging sensors and electronics that may not continue to be the situation one or two decades into the future. ...David

  3. #33
    westernlens al olson's Avatar
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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Quote Originally Posted by roteague View Post
    I'm glad you able to make a choice that fits your style. For me, that choice is film - I just don't like the "look" of digital.

    Just recently, I picked up a new book by Tim Fitzharris. In this book he had switched from using a Mamiya 645 system with Velvia to using a MF digital back. I picked out out every single image in the book that was shot with the digital back, and which was shot on Fuji Velvia. All, because of the "look" of the image.

    I have a digital camera, but it gathers dust.
    Robert, I know what you mean. Digital is a great tool if used with descretion. However, the popularity of the medium has resulted in most users more interested in photoshopping their work rather than creating a good photograph with the camera.

    The covers of the past three issues of Popular Photography have been so overly photoshop'd that they look garish and amateurish. They have been so over-saturated and constrast-stretched (with blown-out highlights) that they more resemble cartoons than any kind of image obtained from reality.

    It is even worse once you get inside the cover. Not only are the images badly done, but most of the articles involve instructions and procedures for making them even more gauche.

    Once upon a time, magazines like Shutterbug and Popular Photograhy were aligned to higher photographic standards. No longer. They have succumbed to the lowest common denominator. My subscriptions will not be renewed.

    At least with film, the ability to manipulate the image is a little more restrained. I want the viewer to appreciate the integrity of the image, not the technical gyrations used to modify it.

    If people like to produce these distorted images, why bother with the camera at all? Throw it away. Just download some clip art or stock photos and photoshop them beyond all recognition.
    al

  4. #34

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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Here's a shout-out to Utah Valley State College. Thier photography program is FILM ONLY. How's that for balls

    Alan.

  5. #35

    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Build it and they will come . .

  6. #36
    grumpy & miserable Joseph O'Neil's Avatar
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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Quote Originally Posted by al olson View Post
    The covers of the past three issues of Popular Photography have been so overly photoshop'd that they look garish and amateurish. They have been so over-saturated and constrast-stretched (with blown-out highlights) that they more resemble cartoons than any kind of image obtained from reality.
    -snip-

    I used to fret endlessly when I had a spot or dust speck or pinmark on a negative that I could not touch or cover up (I still have one of those old negative retouching machines, and a set of inks, but I was never any good at it whatsoever).

    Now that almost all photography is "perfect" due to image processing in photoshop, when I get s peck or a mark, I leave it there. That mark is almost "proof" that the photograph is original, untouched.

    Of course, once that cat gets out of the bag, we will have legions of photographers introducing false flaws to make their work look "real", eh?

    I do not feel that LF photography, especially B&W, is in danger of dying or disappearing at all. As I have pointed out before, more people now own horses than 120 years ago when there were no cars; military schools still teach fencing and martial arts - well, need i go on?

    I think the real change has been the switch in commercial work from film to digital. I kinda find it funny that B&W photography, not just LF, leaving commercial applications, is now the realm of "art", because I grew up in an era when there was (and maybe still is ) serious debate and sometimes scorn for the idea that photography could ever be considered "art".

    Do not forget either that the whole process of setting up and using a LF camera is a very different event than blasting away with a digital camera. When I shot only 35mm, I used to buy B&W film in bulk rolls, load my own, and blast away film like a machine gun. I used to print maybe one negative per roll. Now with 4x5, I print almost every negative (well, not counting the fact I always shoot two sheets for every one shot, just to be safe).

    It's not too different from oil painting or water colour painting - the process of taking time, thinking while you do it, IMO, leads to a very different image than digital, because something about a process - any process - wood carving, LF photo, oil painting, you names, something about how the mind and brain works when you take a long time is what affects the final outcome. When i shoot digital (yepper, I too have my dark side ), it's just blast away, fill up the chip, and worry about image processing back home.

    Same for my wet darkroom vs photoshop. On the computer, I ahve bright lights in my room, likely I have iTunes playing music while I am working, and there are plenty of distractions. In my darkroom, it's the polar opposite, almost sensory depravation, and i find I produce a totally different image than I do on a computer. The mindset is completely different.

    So to me, much of the whole "film is dying" or "film vs digital" threads we see here and ad-nauseum all over the internet pretty much ignore the whole thought process that goes into making the image to begin with.

    I mean, think about it, true photography is not shooting what is in front of your lens, it's shooting what's inside of you and making it come out on film or canvas. Very hard to do that in digital.

    joe
    eta gosha maaba, aaniish gaa zhiwebiziyin ?

  7. #37

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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph O'Neil View Post
    I mean, think about it, true photography is not shooting what is in front of your lens, it's shooting what's inside of you and making it come out on film or canvas. Very hard to do that in digital.
    Why?

    A lens is a lens and a camera is a camera. It is only the light sensitive medium that makes any difference, and if you are really to shoot what's inside you (and I agree, that's a very nice statement), why would it matter what is in the back of the camera? Isn't your image already made in your head even before you press the shutter and therefore before the light reaches the film/sensor?

    What's to prevent you from taking the same amount of time fussing about composition, exposure and waiting for a right moment with a DSLR as you would do with a film SLR?

    If you really practice what you are saying, than the only thing that would really make any difference are your processing skills, traditional and/or computer. A poor image would then imply poor operator skills- yours in this case.

    If you say that you don't like digital photography because you can't make a decent image with it and that traditional works better for you, that would be a very respectable statement. It would mean that you were capable making a distinction between the capabilities of a technology and your own limitations.

    But if you say that digital as such simply does not allow for the thought process and you keep ridiculing both the technology and people using it, then you come accross as just another one of "those people".

  8. #38

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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Same for my wet darkroom vs photoshop. On the computer, I ahve bright lights in my room, likely I have iTunes playing music while I am working, and there are plenty of distractions. In my darkroom, it's the polar opposite, almost sensory depravation, and i find I produce a totally different image than I do on a computer. The mindset is completely different.
    That seems to be a factor of the individual, not the medium. There's certainly nothing about working on a computer that demands bright lights and loud music.

    In fact, proper evaluation of tonal values on a calibrated monitor require dim light and somber surrounding tones. I personally preferred smooth jazz in the chemical darkroom and still prefer smooth jazz in my electronic darkroom.

  9. #39

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    Re: For film the bell tolls

    Quote Originally Posted by al olson View Post
    The covers of the past three issues of Popular Photography have been so overly photoshop'd that they look garish and amateurish. They have been so over-saturated and constrast-stretched (with blown-out highlights) that they more resemble cartoons than any kind of image obtained from reality.
    I quit reading any photography magazines, for the most part. I'm not the least bit interested in letting the computer do the work; get the exposure right in the camera - that is the mark of craftsmanship, IMO.

    Unfortunately, I agree with you. Magazine photography, and not just photography magazines are horrible these days. Just recently I saw a Time-Life magazine type book on the middle east. The front cover was full of noise, it was so bad I can't help but think whoever approved the use of the image for the front cover must have been drinking.

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