Lens Choices or I am confused.

[nray]

Hi.

I have just entered LF world having bought a 4x5 camera which came with a Xenar 5.6/150mm lens. Previously I had a medium format (6x6) camera and shot portraits and landscapes with it. The Large Format world is a new world and I am feeling a bit lost. I have been studying and researching but there is a ton of stuff to learn. I also shot 35mm landscape and portrait. My favorite landscape lens there was a 28mm. I would like a similar landscape lens for Large Format that will produce a nice panoramic but not be too wide that things seem miles away. I have been looking at Schneider lenses. I now have in mind a Super-Symmar XL 110/5.6.

I have some questions. I have thought that the lens size in mm would tell me the angle of coverage it had. In Large Format this doesn't appear to be the case. The angle of coverage can vary widely. So, what do I want to look at, the angle of coverage or the lens in mm? If I look at the angle of coverage, the 110mm lens would seem to match pretty good with my old 28mm lens. I have also read that too wide a lens will loose sharpness at the edges. What part would the lens image circle play a part in helping in my decision? I am having a hard time understanding the angle of view and it's relationship to the image circle.

The other lens I am looking for is a portrait lens. I have decided on a APO-Symmar/5.6 210mm, which I'm sure would be a great landscape lens also.

If anyone cares to wade into this, I would appreciate any advice or recommendations.

Thanks.
Norm Ray

[Nick_3536]

A 110mm lens is a 110mm lens. Unless you like variety no reason to buy two 110mm. Maybe if you want a light weight one and bigger one. But like I said 110mm will be 110mm.

Angle of coverage is the back end. You really want to look for angle of view. The problem is the lens companies can't know what format you'll stick that lens on so they don't tend to publish angle of view. Between roll film holders and the fact some lenses can cover much larger formats it's possible the same lens will be a long and a very wide lens.

On 4x5 a 150mm is like a 80mm on 6x6. If you just double the focal lengths you like on 6x6 you'll get close to what you need for 4x5.

[Ron Marshall]

Norm, 35mm has a diagonal of 43mm. 4x5 has a diagonal of 153mm.

To find roughly which focal length in 4x5 corresponds to 28mm on a 35mm camera, multiply 28mm by 153 then divide by 43. Which is about 100mm, so a 90mm or a 110mm would be close.

Above I wrote roughly corresponds; this is because 35mm is more rectangular than 4x5. Because 35mm is wider the 90mm on 4x5 would be a better match.

The angle of view for a lens (not the angle of coverage, which is greater to allow for movements) can be calculated with a little trigonometry.

The width of the exposed area of film is about 120mm. Half of that is 60mm.

For a 150mm lens the distance between the lens and film is about 150mm (may not be, but for simplicity lets assume)

The horizontal angle of view = 2 Arctan (60/150) = 43.6 degrees

[photographs42]

If you like 28mm on a 35mm camera, the technically equivalent would be roughly a 85mm in 4x5. But the aspect ratio of 4x5 is different so the 85 won’t feel the same. I think the 110 XL is a bit of overkill for 4x5 plus a 75mm or 90mm would be closer to your 28mm for 35.

The diagonal of 4x5 is about 154mm so you need a lens with an image circle larger than that to allow for movements but almost any 75 or 90 will have enough coverage (image circle). As Nick said, the focal length is the focal length. The angle of coverage determines the image circle. Because on a view camera you can shift the front or rear standards, the image circle has to be larger than the film rectangle. Think of it as moving the rectangle that represents the film around in the circular projected image.

I’m not a portrait guy but I would think you would want something around a 210mm or 300mm for that.

Jerome

[steve simmons]

There is a lot of information in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site that will be helpful to you

Angle of coverage is dependent on how the lens is designed. It has nothing to do with focal length or format size.

Angle of view is a function of the focal length of the lens and the size of the film.

Newer wide lenses will not lose sharpness at the edges. Some of the older ones will.

There are several books that might help

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone, Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga or Using the View Camera that I wrote. Check your local library.


steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

[Sheldon N]

The 110mm Super Symmar XL would be a very nice lens as a moderate wide angle for landscape photography. It is very well regarded both for optical performance and for the large image circle that it provides. It is however an expensive lens, primarily because of the large image circle.

The image circle is the diameter of the cone of light projected out the back of the lens (angle of coverage). The size of the cone of light is independent of focal length - instead it is a function of lens design. What this means is that you can have a 110mm lens that will just cover a piece of 4x5 film, and a 110mm lens (like the 110mm SS XL) that will cover the size of an 8x10 piece of film - and both lenses will provide the same field of view when used on 4x5. It is only when you want to add movements or use a larger piece of film that the added coverage comes into play.

So, you choose what lens focal length you need first, using the lens length in mm. Then you choose a specific lens based on your needs for the intended format (4x5, 5x7, 8x10) and/or your need to be able to apply strong movements such as shift/rise. The way to judge whether the lens design will serve your needs is by looking at either the angle of coverage (angle of the cone of light coming out the back of the lens) or the image circle in mm. More angle of coverage/larger image circle = more ability to use movements or use a larger film format.

If budget is a concern, you could save a fair bit of money by choosing a lens with less coverage than the 110mm SS XL. Landscape photography in 4x5 doesn't require that much image circle (200mm of image circle is more than enough), so the almost 300mm of image circle that the SS XL provides can be overkill. Other alternatives to the 110mm might be a Schneider 120mm APO Symmar or a Fujinon 125mm. If budget isn't a concern, then the 110mm SS XL is a dream lens.

For a portrait lens, something a little longer would be ideal. I'm guessing that you meant to type APO Symmar f/5.6 210mm, rather than 110mm - primarily because there is no APO Symmar 110mm. The APO Symmar 210mm would be a very nice lens, lots of coverage and a top performer, and a good focal length for portraits. Again if budget is a concern any 210mm f/5.6 from Rodenstock, Fuji, or Nikkor would perform pretty much just as well, at maybe half the price. The APO Symmar is at the top of the list, though (along with the Rodenstock APO Sironar S).

Good luck on your choices!

[paulr]

It probably depends on how you see and what you photograph, but for me comparing formats based on the horizontal dimension has been more accurate than the diagonal.

The horizontal measure fits my sense of how "wide" the view is. The vertical dimension has been more about general proportion and emphasis on foreground, etc..

Based on this, to me a 110 lens in 4x5 feels pretty close to a 35mm lens in 35mm (keep in mind that unless you print full frame with the funky black borders, your printable width with 4x5 is a bit less than 5 inches, making the effective focal length even longer). Your mileage may vary ... but it's worth thinking about what you really look at when picking a focal length.

[Bruce Watson]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/

I think you are confusing angle of coverage and angle of view. In 35mm, these two things are basically the same. A lens needs no more coverage than is required by the 35mm frame, it need not have coverage for movements because there are none.

Someone else gave the formula for angle of view, which basically describes the angle of view the film sees. Angle of coverage is a design parameter of the lens and is set by the manufacturer. Angle of coverage basically defines the size of the coverage circle which lets you know how much room you have for movements.

A word of warning on lens choice. You favorite lenses for 35mm won't necessarily translate to 5x4. The reason isn't just the difference in aspect ratios. The main reason is that one uses 5x4 differently than one uses 35mm. With 35mm, people almost universally compose with the camera on their face, looking through the viewfinder/rangefinder and "composing with their feet" as it were. This is very difficult to do with most 5x4 cameras (like everything else, there are exceptions). With 5x4, most people walk the scene and compose with their eyes before setting up their tripods. I find I seldom move the tripod once I've decided where to setup -- completely different from the way I used 35mm.

And this technique will redefine which lenses you want, and which are your new favorites. For example, when I was using 35mm I never owned a "normal" lens. With 5x4 I resisted buying a normal lens for years because I never wanted one with 35mm. In the process I missed a lot of good compositions. And it was this process of missing good compositions that forced me to re-evaluate, get beyond my prejudices, and buy that 150mm lens which has now become one of my favorites. I'm just saying...

In the end, you'll have to make your own judgments about lenses. No one else can make those decisions for you. You'll have to find what's most comfortable for you, because if you aren't comfortable with your tools, it's difficult to make good art.

[nray]

So, the image circle is dependent on the design of the lens and not dependent on the size of the lens?

I will get the same image (angle of view)looking through 2 different 110mm lenses on the back of my camera, but the image circle could be twice as big? Right?

Would that decision (of the size of the image circle to get) have an effect on swings and tilts I may want?

I think I'm getting it. Thanks for all your responses. I am very excited about learning this and look forward to getting great shots. Steve, I do have your book "Using the View Camera". I was also told to pick up Ansel Adam's book.

My daughter can't understand why I bought this camera and not the latest digital. To me it's like going to McDonalds or preparing a Thanksgiving dinner at home.

Norm Ray

[Nick_3536]

So, the image circle is dependent on the design of the lens and not dependent on the size of the lens?

Depends on both. A tesar at 150mm will have one image circle. A tesar at 300mm will be twice the image circle. Same design different focal length. OTOH a wide angle design will always have more coverage at the same focal length then a normal design.

I will get the same image (angle of view)looking through 2 different 110mm lenses on the back of my camera, but the image circle could be twice as big? Right?

Could be.

Would that decision (of the size of the image circle) have an effect on swings and tilts I may want?

Usually you work the other way. If you need lots of movements you buy a lens with lots of image circle.