Adjusting Negative Density

[alec4444]

Hi All,

I'm doing my own research on this subject, but I want to make sure I've got the main point down. I've been reading Christopher James' Alternative Photo Processes book and I'm trying to understand how to make a negative with the proper denisty. I know that there's the Ortho duplicating film option, but it seems like a PITA. Another route he mentions is developing with Pyro developers. Aside from a change in chemistry and perhaps some slight changes in methodology, is that it? I just develop in Pyro developers and *POW*, I have a neg with the right density for Platinum/Palladium? Sounds a little too good to be true!

Thanks!
--A

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Hi All,

I'm doing my own research on this subject, but I want to make sure I've got the main point down. I've been reading Christopher James' Alternative Photo Processes book and I'm trying to understand how to make a negative with the proper denisty. I know that there's the Ortho duplicating film option, but it seems like a PITA. Another route he mentions is developing with Pyro developers. Aside from a change in chemistry and perhaps some slight changes in methodology, is that it? I just develop in Pyro developers and *POW*, I have a neg with the right density for Platinum/Palladium? Sounds a little too good to be true!

Thanks!
--A

I hope the book does not say that because it is too good to be true and wrong. The advantage of pyro developers is that the stain absorbs more UV light than non staining developers. Since we use UV light to make the prints this in effect creates a greater contrast. Nevertheless, you still have to test and either develop for longer times or use a more concentrated solution to acheive the necessary contrast.

For example, most people using Pyrocat HD and printing with silver use a 1:1:100 solution, most of us who use this developer and use it for pt/pd or other alt processes use a 2:2:100 concentration, which in fact is double what you would use for silver.

Good luck with the printing...

[Brian Ellis]

I assume you mean making an enlarged negative of the correct density to use for one of the alt processes. Well I vaguely remember using lith film to make an interpositive and then using the interpositive to make an internegative, also on lith film. That was loads of fun. Today if I wanted to do that I wouldn't use any of the darkroom techniques, I'd go straight to the computer and learn how to do it digitally. The learning curve is probably steeper but the end result should be better not to mention a lot easier once you learn how to do it. Trying to make usable enlarged negatives in the darkroom was, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the most unfun thing I've ever done in photography. Nothing else even comes close.

[alec4444]

Trying to make usable enlarged negatives in the darkroom was, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the most unfun thing I've ever done in photography. Nothing else even comes close.

Right, that's what I've heard. Exactly why I wanted to avoid it.

I was under the impression (and perhaps I misunderstood what Christopher James was saying) that with Pyro developers one could process the original negative to create the proper density for alternative processes. Is that completely out of the question? Jorge, sounds like you don't use an interneg...

On a sidenote, I have explored (and even used) the computer process. I don't have all the right stuff here at home, so I had to improvise a bit. Made a print from the negative, scanned it, reversed it, altered the density, and printed it out at 360dpi onto inkjet transparency paper.

Doing that with 11x14 is out of the question because the inkjet transparencies don't come that big, my printer won't hold them, and at 360dpi what's the point of the large format camera????

--A

[Donald Qualls]

One way to greatly improve enlarged negatives is not to use lith film. Rather, use a contone film (I've seen TMX used to make unsharp masks, but a contone ortho film would be a lot easier to use -- normal safelights apply instead of working in total darkness, and the film speed being two to four stops slower makes for much more practical exposure times as well).

It's easier, and uses less film, to make the interpositive by contact printing, and from my reading this interpositive should look "dead" -- all the highlights should be distinctly gray, all the shadows should be distinctly transparent; the thing should look like a muddy, dull print, completely without "snap". If you want to dodge and burn, however, it's easier to do that (because it works the way you're used to from printing) in making the interpositive, which would argue in that case for making the enlargement step first and then contacting to get the enlarged negative.

Either way, it's the negative that should get the high contrast development, not the interpositive -- develop the positive to high contrast, and you'll lose information onto the toe and shoulder, information that can then never make it onto the enlarged negative and thus will never show in your print no matter what you do at the printing step.

[Jim Noel]

I make and teach others how to make enlarged and duplicate negatives using lith film from Freestyle. ALthough I have the capability and the knowledge to make these on the computer, I can make them better and cheaper, and probably just as fast, in the darkroom.

If you don't want to use lith film, purchase some Ilford Ortho+. It is orthochromatic so it can be handled under a red safelight and it has a heavier film base than does lith film. The major problem is that it does not come in sizes larger than 8x10 as far as I know.

Jim

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

I was under the impression (and perhaps I misunderstood what Christopher James was saying) that with Pyro developers one could process the original negative to create the proper density for alternative processes. Is that completely out of the question? Jorge, sounds like you don't use an interneg...

Hmmm....I guess I misunderstood your initial post. Yes, you can process the original negative with pyro developers to give you the required contrast for use in alt processes.

[alec4444]

Yes, you can process the original negative with pyro developers to give you the required contrast for use in alt processes.

Brilliant! Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear with my original post..... I didn't want to make a duplicate neg or an enlarged neg, I just wanted to make an original negative suitable for Pt/Pd. I figure if I make two negs of every subject (i.e. one filmholder) I can develop one normal and develop the other for Pt/Pd. OR, if I make a major error on one the other still has a chance.

Going to start with normal negs, though, and try the Pt/Pd density later on down the road. Have to master one thing at a time....!

Thanks!
--A

[Bruce Watson]

I'm doing my own research on this subject, but I want to make sure I've got the main point down. I've been reading Christopher James' Alternative Photo Processes book and I'm trying to understand how to make a negative with the proper denisty. I know that there's the Ortho duplicating film option, but it seems like a PITA. Another route he mentions is developing with Pyro developers. Aside from a change in chemistry and perhaps some slight changes in methodology, is that it? I just develop in Pyro developers and *POW*, I have a neg with the right density for Platinum/Palladium? Sounds a little too good to be true!

If what you want is to increased contrast and dMax for alternative processes, most developers will do this - just increase your development time.

Is pyro a magic bullet? Probably not. Still, it is interesting because of its staining, and how the stain effects light passing through it, particularly UV light. My understanding is that for those processes, the UV filtering properties of pyro developed negatives provide somewhat of a compensating effect which makes it easier to avoid blown out highlights in the print. This is a good thing, and perhaps why pyro has such a following, particularly with the alternative process practitioners.

Nothing that I know of is going to let you avoid doing what you really have to do. That is, you still have to expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. The trick is in defining what "develop for the highlights" means for your particular printing process.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Pyrocat-HD is a convenient developer. The negatives you gear towards Alt. processes with this developer can also be printed on silver papers. The same thing goes with most pyro based developers.