Help : Where do I start with 4x5 Lenses?

[snaggs]

I've just put a bid on a 4x5 Tachihara camera, and I'm looking at lenses for it. One for portraits & tele-landscapes, something like 135 or 85 in 35mm, and also something for wide-angle landscapes.

I've found a few second hand, but don't know my Sironars from Symmars..

Schneider 90mm f/8 Super Angulon
Schneider 120mm f/8 Super Angulon
Schneider Symmar 135/235 f/5.6-f/12 (is this some kind of zoom?)
Schneider Symmar 210/370 f/5.6-f/12
Schneider Symmar-S 135mm f/5.6 MC
Rodenstock Sironar-N 150mm f/5.6 MC
Rodenstock Sironar-N 180mm f/5.6 MC
Rodenstock Sironar-N 240mm f/5.6 MC Copal 3
Rodenstock APO Ronar 150mm f/8 Copal 0
Gandagon-N 90mm MC f/6.8
Sinar Sinaron-S 210mm f/5.6 MC

CONFUSING!!!!

What do the different Copal numbers mean? My thought were maybe to get the Sironar 240mm and the Gandaon 90mm.

Daniel.

[Nick_3536]

Copal # are the shutters the lenses are mounted in.

Basically

#0 tiny. Light weight easy to carry

#1 bigger and heavier but not too bad.

#3 Huge and heavy. Not the first choice for a lens that goes into the field.

The ones with two F/stops are convertible. Use half the lens and it's a longer focal length. With some loss of quality.

Any of the modern lenses will do fine. The issues are how you see. How much coverage do you need? How much weight are you willing to carry? Will it fit your camera? Then things like filter size.

[snaggs]

Ok, can you tell me more about the shutters? Are the heavier shutters better made or have more features? i.e. is there any downside to #0 shutters?

Weight doesn't worry me that much, I will only ever need 4x5 coverage. Will it fit my Camera.. good question.. Im getting a Tachihara... and none of these seem to be too extreme?

Daniel.

[verney]

Ok, can you tell me more about the shutters? Are the heavier shutters better made or have more features? i.e. is there any downside to #0 shutters?

Size doesn't make shutters any better or worse. Shutter size is mentioned because you need a lens board with matching size hole in order to use that lens. Getting a lens board with a rare hole size to a rare camera can be problem.

[Ralph Barker]

Lens choices can, indeed, be confusing. Although a factor of 3x is an approximate rule of thumb for equivalent focal lengths (e.g. 50mm is "normal" for 35mm, 150mm is "normal" for 4x5), it doesn't always translate to the same "look" because of the difference in aspect ratios.

There are several lens articles and comparison charts on The LF Home Page link in the blue navigation bar that you may find helpful. Essentially, the choices could be summarized as:

1. older "classic" lenses from the late 19th century and early 20th century, often in barrel (no shutter) or in older, rather basic shutters,

2. mid 20th century lenses from Ilex, Kodak, Wollensak and others, in various shutters (the S.K. Grimes site has background info on some of these, and

3. "modern" lenses in "modern" shutters (mostly Copal).

Among the "modern" lenses, Rodenstock and Schneider are probably the most common, but Fuji and Nikkor are also common, if not as plentiful. Most lenses from any of the "Big 4" are usually considered good to excellent. Model names (e.g. Symmar-S) can be used to deduce the approximate age of the lens, and represent the evolution of a particular design over time. For example, older Schneider Symmars are often "convertible" - having two focal lengths and two aperture scales. Then came the non-convertible Symmars, followed by the Symmar-S, then the APO Symmars, and currently the Symmar L series. The incremental differences are fairly subtle.

The two most important factors in deciding on a lens might be focal length and image circle (coverage), both interpreted in relation to the camera you have - mostly the minimum and maximum bellows extension. Remember, bellows-wise, you need about 1x the focal length to focus at infinity, and about 2x to focus 1:1 close-up. Thus, having at least 1.25-1.5x the focal length in bellow extension is a good thing to ensure flexibility in use of the lens. At the wide end, lens wise, minimum bellows extension is the limiting factor, but that can sometimes be assisted by the use of recessed lens boards. With smaller front standards, however, recessed boards are limited. On my Toyo 45AX, for example, which uses 110mm boards, recessed boards are available only for lenses in Copal 0 shutters, Copal 1s being too marge to fit within the recessed area in most cases.

From there, larger apertures, particularly with wide-angle lenses, makes focusing easier. Image circle (coverage) determines how much flexibility you'll have with movements (tilt, swing, rise, fall, shift).

[John Kasaian]

210 might be a good focal length for you to start with. If your wide lens is for landscapes, then it probably isn't neccesary to go as wide as 90----maybe a 120 would fill your needs. These lens should come in a No.1 shutter which should fit nicely on your tachi's lensboard with a "No.1" hole.

Symmar or Sironar? Both are superb lenses. Select the one in the best condition, all else being equal. If you intend to shoot color, a multicoated lens is nice to have but if B&W is your forte a single coated lens will get you more bang for your buck.

Get a hold of a copy of Steve Simmons book "Using The View Camera" and read it before buying anything else---you'll get a better understanding of what you need for your first kit and that'll save you a lot of money!

Welcome to LF!

[Nick_3536]

The smaller shutters have faster top speeds. From memory

#0 1/500
#1 1/400
#3 1/125

OTOH the bigger openings of the bigger shutters allows for faster F/stops. You say that weight doesn't matter. Wait until you see a big fast lens mounted in a #3 shutter versus a similar lens mounted in a #1

[robc]

Ok, can you tell me more about the shutters? Are the heavier shutters better made or have more features? i.e. is there any downside to #0 shutters?

Weight doesn't worry me that much, I will only ever need 4x5 coverage. Will it fit my Camera.. good question.. Im getting a Tachihara... and none of these seem to be too extreme?

Daniel.

The size is dictated by the focal length of the lens. It is not a question of making a choice of one shutter size or another for a lens. The reason is because of physical aperture size.

aperture or fstop is the ratio of focal length / iris diameter.

f5.6 on a 90mm lens is 90 / 5.6 = 16.07mm which means the physical diameter of the aperture at f5.6 is 16.07mm.

f5.6 on a 300mm lens is 300 / 5.6 = 53.57mm which means the physical diameter of the aperture at f5.6 is 53.57mm.

So longer focal length lenses need bigger shutters.

One shutter size will do for several different focal lengths but the shutter needs to have the correct aperture scale on it which corresponds to the focal length of the lens.

so copal 0 is good for very short upto around 150mm lenses. Copal 1 for upto around 300mm lenses and copal 3 for the longest lenses. However, using a copal 1 on a 150mm lens would mean that you get a maximum aperture of around f5.6 whereas using the same copal 1 on a 300mm would only give a maximum aperture of around f9.

I don't have the spec figures for copal lenses so you could work out the f numbers available for each copal lens / focal length combination and besides a lens designed for copal 3 is unlikely to fit on a copal 0 shutter.

in other words you need the correct shutter size for your specific lens. Most new lenses come with the correct shutter. If you buy second hand its anyones guess whether you get the correct shutter so you should check to be sure its the correct size and that it has the correct aperture scale on it for your focal length.

The shutter size dictates the size of the hole in the lens board.

[David Karp]

Hi,

I am not the world's expert. There are plenty of people out there who know way more than me. I was in your situation once, and was totally confused by what lenses are available for LF users, how to use them, etc. So, when I knew a little bit, I wrote this article for the LF Home Page: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/. You might find it helpful.

As for the names, like Sironar, Symmar, etc. They are names like Joe and Bob, only given to lenses by the german manufacturers. The Japanese use simpler designations. Like Fujinon CM-W or Nikkor SW. It would help to know that Sironars came before Sironar-Ns, which came before APO-Sironar Ns, etc. Similarly, Symmars came before Symmar Ss, which cambe before APO-Symmars, which came before APO-Symmar Ls.

Hope this helps.

[Capocheny]

Hi,

I think it'd be wise for you to pick up a book on LF photography FIRST and FOREMOST.

Like a lot of folks (me included,) it sounds like you're jumping in head first and doing the due diligence later on after you've bought the "ideal" kit.

My suggestion is to do some reading FIRST. Then, jump in! The reason for this is because of its equivalent to buying a Porsche Carrerra first and then deciding that what you "really want" to do with it is to go off-roading. It ain't gonna happen!

Likewise for LF photography you may end up buying the a nice camera, some lenses, holders and film... only to find that the coverage of a particular lens isn't enough to cover the format.

So... do yourself a huge favor and do some reading FIRST!

Good luck... nice to see you wanting to join the club!

Cheers