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Thread: Push and Pull

  1. #11

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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    The terms "push" and "pull" are inherently imprecise and fuzzy themselves. Most who use the terms "push" and "pull" use roll film cameras and in-camera meters.

    "Pushing" is most commonly regarded as a technique to get usable photographs in low-light situations or when a really fast shutter speed is necessary.
    Nope. There is nothing fuzzy about pushing and pulling. They have absolutely nothing to do with exposure. They simply refer to lowering/raising film contrast during development by varying temperature or time. You can even push unexposed film: get it fresh from B&H, don't bother with cameras, load it right away into a Paterson tank and develop in stock D76 for 24 hours for an extreme push!

    It's very simple. The "fuzziness" comes from Youtube.

  2. #12
    multiplex
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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by Bormental View Post
    Nope.
    It's very simple. The "fuzziness" comes from Youtube.
    I would also add that the "fuzziness" comes from reading lots of technical and unnecessary information. I can understand some people love the technical aspect of things but it's just photography and 99.9% of the time none of the technical and unnecessary information matters. what matters is accurate shutter speeds, and developing the film so the impression of what was infront of the lens appears on the film. sunny 16(11) works as well as a meter in most conditions ( if it didn't they wouldn't have printed the instructions on every box of film since the 1940s ), err on the side of a little extra exposure, and develop "normally" as described on the bottle of the developer. fancy developers aren't needed, fancy developing systems are not needed, just a darkened room. the best teacher of photography is the experience of doing it, not reading and watching you tube and tech manuals, they just distract and confuse.

  3. #13

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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by jnantz View Post
    the best teacher of photography is the experience of doing it, not reading and watching you tube and tech manuals, they just distract and confuse.
    Yes. The OP seems intent on going down rabbit holes that invite speculation and argument. For example all the other threads asking similar questions, that eventually turn into arguments or contradictions. Photography is not molecular genetics. Almost everything there is to know is accessible with a simple Google search and most of the learning happens by shooting film and experimenting, not memorizing tech manuals and product sheets, and then questioning their validity. Push and pull are simple concepts. No way it should take two pages of arguing back and forth.

    If I didn’t know better I’d suspect that the OP asks these questions more for entertainment purposes (watching people here beat themselves to death trying to over-explain simple concepts) than for practical understanding.

  4. #14

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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by Bormental View Post
    Nope. There is nothing fuzzy about pushing and pulling.

    It's very simple. The "fuzziness" comes from Youtube.
    This phenomenon of blaming YouTube for the bad technical advice people find is misguided, IMO. There are plenty of very skilled photographers with good teaching skills, who produce content for YouTube to instruct others how to do X, Y, or Z. Sure, there's plenty of junk content too, but 'Tubers like John Finch, Borut Peterlin, Lina Bessanova - to name but three - produce some great tutorials for YouTube. Don't blame the channel for delivering bad content - blame the user for not being a bit smarter about whose content they're "learning" from. It's not hard to weed out the junk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kerner View Post
    Yes. The OP seems intent on going down rabbit holes that invite speculation and argument.
    If I didnít know better Iíd suspect that the OP asks these questions more for entertainment purposes (watching people here beat themselves to death trying to over-explain simple concepts) than for practical understanding.
    "Monochrome" has been advised to get himself one or two books that detail the more basic principles of film exposure and development, and spend less time trying to interpret works like A. Adams, but it seems he (this has to be a male, based on his demeanor) is intent on trying to digest the more intricate aspects of B&W photography without building a foundation of understanding that - let's face it - is essential to understanding and applying the more complex concepts. He wants to fly without first learning to walk. He's ignored plenty of sage advice, sneered at his peers and the photographers he encounters "IRL", and defied the instruction he's been offered. It's hardly a wonder that some have interpreted his posts as "trolling".

    When someone has come to a group seeking advice, but has already made up his mind about the subject he's asking about, there's nothing anyone can do to address the problems. This one seems intent on avoiding learning anything.

  5. #15

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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by djdister View Post
    The multiple development curves provided on the Foma pdf contradicts their earlier statement that "the film gives good results even when overexposed by 1 EV (exposure value) (as ISO 200/24 o) or underexposed by 2 EV (as ISO 1600/33 o) without any change in processing, i.e. without lengthening the development time or increasing the temperature of the developer used." Perhaps something got lost in the translation to english.
    Nope. I can assure you there is the exact same nonsense in the original Czech language too. :-)

  6. #16

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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    ... I personally dislike interjecting the terms "push" and "pull" with respect to Zone System theory. "Plus" or "Minus" development is less confusing, since the former pair of terms was generally used in relation to automated minor development tweaks to color film development instead.
    I dislike the terms, period. Basically shorthand for sloppy guesswork.

    Doremus

  7. #17

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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    Under exposing sheet film and over-developing it is not commonly practiced. Maybe like using a view camera hand -held. Not common, but not without merit for special circumstances.
    Yep. It's a roll-film-get-the-shot-in-low-light thing. It's become enough of a "look" that some like it (and think it's technically good photography).

    Doremus

  8. #18
    multiplex
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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    I dislike the terms, period. Basically shorthand for sloppy guesswork.

    Doremus
    how is it sloppy guesswork if you know what the results are going to be ?

  9. #19

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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by jnantz View Post
    how is it sloppy guesswork if you know what the results are going to be ?
    You two are making my point for me! See post #13. OP hasn't been back here since posting the original question.

  10. #20
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    Re: Push and Pull

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kerner View Post
    You two are making my point for me! See post #13. OP hasn't been back here since posting the original question.
    hi bob, kinda funny

    the OP doesn't come back. cause s/he's a troll and this is what trolls do, get people talking. without them stopping in
    to this site from time to time (and it's probably the same person, but just a change of name every few weeks)
    the 4 or 5 active posters wouldn't say anything at all about photography.

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