Sinar P2 / P3 compatibility?

[RETRO MoGraph]

Hi folks,

I'm new around here and also new to the world of LFP, so be gentle!

I'm mulling over the purchase of my first 4 x 5 camera.

The engineering on Sinar cameras looks pretty nice!

A couple of questions: what's the compatibility between Sinar P2 & P3 cameras, in terms of accessories?

I read in a couple of places that the P2 is a great system because of the modularity and the amount of accessories available on the second hand market.

Does this also apply to the P3? And can you use P2 accessories (like the P2 reflex finder) on the P3?

Any other issues or pitfalls i should be aware of?

Thanks for you time!

[Joshua Dunn]

There is little that is compatible between the P2 and P3. The P3 is designed to be smaller as it is supposed the work with digital back and the large format lenses made specifically for that platform. If you are looking into 4x5 I would look for a camera system for that and not necessarily try to combine digital and film platforms.

That said, the Sinar system is a great system. I am a big advocate (and shooter) of it. Is therea reason you haven't considered a F2?

-Joshua

[Drew Wiley]

If you're aiming to shoot 4X5, you can select from the Norma, P, C, F, C, and X series. Nearly all the components are interchangeable. P cameras are heavy geared things best kept in a studio environment. X is a late simplified P without some of the etching marks. There was a whole series of F "field cameras", C a hybrid involving both F and P components, and the old original Norma series (my favorite of them all), is nearly as rigid as the P but far more portable. Regular P 2's will accept digital backs, but the P3 is a specialty digital version ill suited for film use, so not a realistic choice in your case, and probably way overpriced too.

Why are you thinking of a P anyway? They need a lot of support due to their extra weight and bulk. The geared controls are nice, but certainly not a necessity. Do you plan to specialize in studio photography, or wish to shoot landscape and architecture too, where something more portable makes more sense, like an F2 or earlier Norma?

Pitfalls? Beware of ambiguous seller listings. Make sure descriptions and pictures match. It's common to encounter Sinar cameras cobbled together from leftover components. These might be perfectly usable, but not necessarily what they claim to be per model. They might be listed as a P model, but are really more like a C, with a P rear standard but an F front standard, or even an old "intermediate standard" intended for bellows support. When in doubt, ask experienced people on this forum to look at the ad, and comment.

[RETRO MoGraph]

Thanks guys, already gathering some great info here!

I am indeed not interested in using a digital back (unless they /10 in price), so i've struck the P3 off my list.

I'm planning to do almost only studio shooting. Maybe now and again something outside, but nothing in deepest nature, so no lugging it up a mountain. But if i go outside it'll be in the city, easily accessible by car.

The only reason i was thinking mostly about the P is that it looks like having the chunkiest design, and i'm a sucker for solid engineering.

About buying: i recently bought a Nikon F2 from Ebay, you know, from one of these Japanese sellers claiming: ***TOP Mint+++*** ...... anyway, that went well and the camera was in great condition.

It seems like buying from a seller that has 2000+ ratings at 100% is pretty low risk. I don't have many options locally (Amsterdam), Cambo is more popular round these parts.

Good idea about sharing any ad i'm considering on this forum for some second opinions, will certainly do that.

[neil poulsen]

One can easily combine digital with film by including medium format film holders in your kit. I've done this with my 6x9 Arca Swiss Metric camera. (I have a Phase One P45+ digital back.) It's an excellent system for both technologies. Versus getting the specially designed digital lenses, I use all Schneider film lenses. Works for me.

It's a little more complicated combining 4x5 with digital, because of the breadth of lenses needed to support both formats. My digital lenses extend down to a 35mm Rodenstock f4.5 Grandagon, and my 4x5 lenses extend up to a 360mm lens. That said, I have the adapters needed to combine digital with my 4x5 Arca Swiss hybrid camera. (Includes both modern and older Arca-Oschwald components.)

Consider combining digital with medium format B&W film as I have. I can't really see much difference between MF and 4x5 black and white photographs. But then, I tend to print on 8x10 paper primarily. The P3 system could be sweet for this, if it can support MF film. (Not sure, since I have little P3 knowledge.) I've had a Sinar F2 4x5 that I customized, liked, and used for 4x5 black and white. But, I can't really recommend it for 4x5 and digital. Not enough precision for my tastes.

[Drew Wiley]

Te best Sinar operator I ever met uses his P2 4X5's with Phase One digital backs, and he could easily afford to upgrade to P3's if he actually felt the need. Plenty good enough for publishing purposes or prominent store window inkjet advertising panels. To him, it's all a step down in quality from his former specialty enlarging 8X10 P2 chromes to huge incredibly detailed Cibachrome prints.

[RETRO MoGraph]

Te best Sinar operator I ever met uses his P2 4X5's with Phase One digital backs, and he could easily afford to upgrade to P3's if he actually felt the need. Plenty good enough for publishing purposes or prominent store window inkjet advertising panels. To him, it's all a step down in quality from his former specialty enlarging 8X10 P2 chromes to huge incredibly detailed Cibachrome prints.

Thanks for that!

Quick question: i also see some 8 x 10 Sinar cameras on Ebay, i guess these are just the same P2 mechanicals but with a bigger rear standard and bellows, right? Or in other words: all P2s are ungradable to 8 x 10?

[Drew Wiley]

There was a dealer in the Netherlands with a fair amount of classic Sinar Norma gear for sale. That's certainly solid! But I haven't checked recently to see if he still has much or not. F2's are lighter, but quite reliable. Don't get an early F+, which simply uses a less durable intermediate standard as the front standard. Sinar monorails are easy to balance atop a tripod, but a lack of "solidity" when shooting is more likely to come from an insufficient support like a wobble-bobble ballhead on a tripod or studio stand unless high-speed flash is being used. Stick with Sinar's own rail clamp and tilting device. There are two versions of the rail clamp; the later one has a catch arm going clear over the top of the rail and is a lot more resistant to slippage than the prior version. The old Norma rail clamps are also very solid, but less convenient to operate.

The whole problem with upgrading a 4X5 to 5X7 or 8x10 is whether it's cost effective or not. Sure, it's easy to do by switching out standards and bellows. But on the used market, it's generally cheaper to purchase a whole other camera in the larger format. Remember, spare 4X5 bellows are easy to convert into an excellent compendium lens shade with a simple rod and clip system Sinar also offers.

[Joshua Dunn]

I think you're planning too far ahead. The Sinar F2 is the best bang for the buck on the market IMHO. You can easily find one with a few accessories for less than $500. That leaves room for what you really want, good lenses. Start with an F2 and two lenses. Get to know it and large format. You can always upgrade to 8x10 later however (as an 8x10 shooter myself) I would really stick to 4x5 unless there is a specific reason to go larger.

For the record I have both the F2 and P2 in multiple formats. While I really appreciate the amazing engineering of the P2, I almost always shoot with an F2.

-Joshua

[B.S.Kumar]

Wile the OP may not be interested any more, there is a certain amount of compatibility between the P2 and P3. The P2 standard bearers can be used with the P3 frames. For those who use the P3 as their primary camera, but occasionally want to use 4x5, a tapered bellows to join the P3 front standard to the rear P2 4x5 standard is available. A P3 Linhof Technika lens board adapter is also available.

Kumar