Schneider Super Symmar 80XL

[Andrew Ito]

I've been doing a bit of research here and on the web about the Schneider Super Symmar 80XL. From what I've read, there have been reports of it being very soft wide open. Now, I'm not really planning on shooting it wide open, but I'd like to be able to focus with this lens wide open and I've heard reports of it being too soft to even focus wide open. The lens seems to be a great lightweight choice with decent coverage at a perfect focal length for me. Any people out there with this lens that can give me their opinions on it? Light weight is important to me as well as good coverage and sharpness.

I currently have a Nikkor 65SW and Fujinon 90SW f8 and would like to replace them both with the one 80XL to save weight. Anyone think I should just stick with my setup or go for the XL? Or is there another option that I should look at? Thanks for your replies!

[Eric Leppanen]

If the SS80XL is the lens that best meets your needs, go ahead and buy it. Just be sure to buy from a source that will allow you to return the lens if it does not focus to your satisfaction. All the major LF retailers (Midwest Photo, Badger Graphic, etc.) will allow you to do this, as will the majority of Ebay sellers (confirm with the seller that he will allow return of the lens if it does not focus properly wide-open).

To my knowledge, the wide-open focus issue is associated with the first batch of SS80XL's shipped by Schneider. I have not heard of more recent lenses having this problem.

The SS80XL is extremely sharp when stopped down to working aperture, and is the state-of-the-art among 4x5 wide-angles lenses. I have been extremely happy with mine. 80mm is plenty wide for most folks, and I recently sold my SA58XL because I never used it (the SS80XL was wide enough for me).

The only drawback to the SS80XL versus your 90mm Fuji is that you may need to use a center filter when using chrome film (depends on how much light falloff you consider acceptable). No center filter is needed when using color print or B&W film. Personally I consider the center filter a small price to pay given the performance, coverage and light weight of this lens. Compared to a 90mm, the 80mm focal length also makes for better focal length spacing if you ever decide to get the renowned SS110XL.

[paulr]

"The only drawback to the SS80XL versus your 90mm Fuji is that you may need to use a center filter when using chrome film (depends on how much light falloff you consider acceptable)."

I don't think you'll see any difference in need for a center filter between this lens and any other lens of the same focal length. Almost all of a lens's falloff is from the cosine-4 phenomenon, and is determined by simple physics, not by lens design or construction.

Not too many years ago a sales rep from a reputable lens company became the laughing stock of optics engineers everywhere when he claimed that his company's wide angle lenses don't require center filters. The schneider technicians still tell the story! Whether you need one or not depends, as Eric suggested, on how much falloff is ok with you when you're using chromes.

[tim atherton]

what about all this tilted iris/aperture stuff or whatever it is?

[Eric Leppanen]

My understanding is that lenses such as the Nikkor SW, Schneider Super Angulon, and presumably the Fuji SW use a so-called "tilted pupil" design to achieve approximately cosine to the third power illumination, meaning there is less light fall-off at the edge of the image circle. However, this design also increases the size and weight of the lens (particularly the rear element). Schneider did not use a "tilted pupil" in the SSXL’s, making these lenses smaller and lighter while still providing outstanding coverage; however, they illuminate per cosine to the fourth power and are more likely to require a center filter. There are many recent threads on this (e.g., see Michael Briggs' comments here: largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/501267.html).

To my knowledge virtually all SS80XL users find that a center filter is not needed when using color print or B&W film. Most (but not all) SS80XL users find a center filter necessary when using chrome film, especially when using significant movements.

[Stephen Fritz]

My SS80XL was purchased new about 4 months ago and is quite surprisingly sharp wide open. I do not hesitate to photograph with it that way when it's required. Mine came from B&H.

[John C Murphy]

According to Kerry Thalmann's article on Center Filters (View Camera, July/August 2005), the Symmars and Sironars at 80mm would have equivalent light falloff to a Super Angulon or Grandagon at 65mm!

I highly recommend investing in the center ND (CND) filter if you purchase the SSXL80. For one thing, the light falloff without is noticable on chromes. Secondly, it helps to cut down on mechanical vignetting because it increases the outer filter diameter to 86mm (or even 90mm if you use a push-on filter holder). Unfortunately, the bigger filters are expensive. Lastly, the CND does cause a 1.3 stop loss which may be a problem, depending upon what you're shooting.

Despite these inconveniences, the SSXL80 is a great lens, not only for its compact size, but also for its incredible sharpness.

[Michael S. Briggs]

The amount of falloff isn't the same in all lenses -- while optical physics is involved, design decisions can modify the evenness of the illumination: the tilted pupil method that Eric mentions can be used to reduce the off-axis falloff. As an example, a recent thread discussed the falloff of the 80 mm SS-XL and the 75 mm Rodenstock Grandagon-N: http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/505791.html. Even though the 75 mm Grandagon-N has a shorter focal length, at f22 it delivers more illumination to the corners of a 4x5 film than the 80 mm SS-XL.

Whether or not you "need" a center filter with a particular lens depends on your uses of the lens and your tastes. One photographer will find that they "need' a center filter with the 80 mm SS-XL on 4x5, while another will barely notice the falloff. It depends on how much movements you use, whether you use negative or transparency film and your taste.

[paulr]

Can someone point me to an article on "tilted pupils" ... google turns up nothing.

[Eric Leppanen]

paulr,

The "Center Filter" section here gives a brief synopsis, as well as a comprehensive but expensive reference source:

www.largeformatphotography.info/filters.html

I vaguely remember one or more articles in View Camera magazine (perhaps one of Kerry Thalmann's articles?) discussing this too.