Heico Perma-Wash vs. Ilford Wash-Aid Logistics?

[Gary Beasley]

It takes me a long time to use up a gallon jug of Permawash concentrate. I recently needed more and found it on Amazon of all places.

[jnantz]

Preface: When I print these days I’m typically in the darkroom for three to six hours on a given day, and might fully process, wash, and dry from two to five 16X20 prints during this time period. Furthermore, as I’m printing a bit less these days…I might be in the darkroom only one day per week, and sometimes less.

Given both the above scenario and/or my somewhat earlier one of pulling two or three six to eight (sometimes twelve) hour darkroom sessions per week, over the course of which I might process, wash, and dry fifteen to twenty five(ish) 16X20’s, I’d found, that as a fixer remover, Heico Perma Wash has fit my needs perfectly, with a working-solution capacity of ten 16X20’s per gallon, and shelf life of 90 days for that same gallon, if full and capped. Furthermore, as the Perma Wash concentrate is diluted 3oz per gallon to make a working solution, I’ve found it very workable over the years to purchase Perma Wash concentrate in the one-liter size.

When I’d recently needed to re-order my trusty liter of Heico Perma-Wash, I’d noticed that there is now a minimum order of 6 (through B+H), which I then looked upon as an opportunity to give Ilford Wash-Aid a try.

So I get my one-liter bottle of Ilford Wash-Aid, and notice that its specifics for dilution, capacity, and shelf-life are completely different than those for Perma-Wash. For example, the dilution from concentrate to working solution is one plus 4 (five parts total), meaning that the one liter bottle gives me five liters of working mix. The problem arises in the capacity and shelf life of this working solution, with the capacity being 40 16X20 prints per gallon (appx.), and a shelf life of one week!

And there is no way that anything less than about one gallon of working solution can be safe and effective for my typical output of 16x20 prints.

Finally, the cost of creating a one gallon working mix of Ilford Wash-Aid is approximately 21.60, which equates to around 50 cents per 16X20 print (assuming I’d work it to capacity prior to exhaustion), while the cost of creating a gallon of Perma Wash working mix is appx. 2.00, which equates to 20 cents per print, and while its per (working) gallon capacity is much less than that with Wash-Aid, I can always mix more if I need to, and if I don’t come close to reaching this capacity during a given print session, I have up to 89 additional days before it goes kaput! In other words, I basically always use Perma Wash to its full capacity. (not an exact science, but you get my drift)

About the only scenario in which I could see Ilford Wash-Aid being at all cost effective/efficient for my needs would be if I were to go “full bore” for that one week, pre-exhaustion time period, and over this time process, wash, and dry 40 16X20 prints! Back in the day? Maybe. But these days? Nope!

At any rate…I’ve been ranting and blathering long enough, and have just noticed that Adorama sells individual liter bottles of Perma-Wash, although it looks backordered for the time being. I’d go with the gallon bottle of Perma Wash concentrate…but can find nothing published about the shelf life of Perma Wash concentrate, either in full or partially full bottles. Anybody here know this? Thanks! Any comments relating to personal experiences with either of these products would be most welcome! Also...am I missing something here?

(As for other wash aids, the only one I’d used in any quantity was the Sprint “Fixer Remover” formulation…but found problems with this going bad prematurely).

John I haven't bought pw in ages I bought 1 gallon of concentrate and mix just enough for the run I am on.. it seems to be a lifetime supply. when I run out (get a 2nd life?) im going to go back to using sprint fixer remover, Paul Krot knew what he was doing (and was a nice guy to boot, and the people who run the show there are swell ) .. if you want to try that instead of making your own you can get it directly off the sprint website or call them directly they will probably sell it to you directly. there are no AI PhoneBots at their factory.

[Duolab123]

I use Kodak Hypo clearing agent. You might try Freestyle for Heico, these guys and Unique Photo ship liquids ground UPS.

[Doremus Scudder]

The MSDS for Sprint's Fixer Remover lists the following ingredients:


Sodium metabisulfite <10%
Potassium salts of diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid <10%
Ethylene Glycol 107-21-1 <5%
Glutaraldehyde <2%
Formaldehyde <0.2%

Sodium Sulfite is conspicuously absent (as it is in Heico Perma Wash).

I'm interested in the opinion of the chemists on the forum about how this formula works and how it compares to sulfite-based wash aids like the Ilford and Kodak products. Is it better? Worse? Hocus-pocus?

TIA

Doremus

[Bernice Loui]

Quick note on using wash aids.. Reduction in water usage. This is and has become a very serious consideration today as the supply of water is no longer so plentiful and to be taken for granted.


Bernice

[PRJ]

Sodium Sulfite
Water
Tray

Doesn't get much easier....

[MartinP]

I found it quite practical, and also cost-effective, to put a pack of the Kodak product (a single powder in a large sachet) in an airtight jar and weigh out the appropriate mount for the session when needed. It worked out as 27g of product per litre of working solution I think. The stuff is almost entirely sodium sulfite, so there isn't a huge danger of having an unmixed product in your spoonful of powder. Probably sodium sulfite is cheaper, but the Kodak product is more easily available in a normal photo-stockist and still isn't expensive.

[Duolab123]

I found it quite practical, and also cost-effective, to put a pack of the Kodak product (a single powder in a large sachet) in an airtight jar and weigh out the appropriate mount for the session when needed. It worked out as 27g of product per litre of working solution I think. The stuff is almost entirely sodium sulfite, so there isn't a huge danger of having an unmixed product in your spoonful of powder. Probably sodium sulfite is cheaper, but the Kodak product is more easily available in a normal photo-stockist and still isn't expensive.

This is a great idea. I suppose a small measure, like used for measuring ground coffee, could be calibrated to deliver 27 grams. I usually make up the gallon of Kodak Hypo clearing agent stock, save a half gallon in a full bottle, dilute the rest to working strength and store in a 2 1/2 gallon container with a spigot and floating lid. Stuff will keep forever away from oxygen.

[John Layton]

Have located my sodium sulfite and will mix a washing-aid working solution as others have suggested, and I have two questions:

One - I have some bisulfite as well, but as my needs are only for prints and not films, I'm guessing that it would be unnecessary to add this bisulfite to the mix. Is this correct? (BTW, my water supply is quite well balanced, neither excessively hard nor soft)

Two - Timing (rinse/washing-aid/final wash) recommendations for "archival" washing of fiber based prints with this DIY sulfite-only mix? Thanks!

[Michael R]

Bisulfite is added to lower the pH of a fresh plain sodium sulfite solution, which tends to reduce the chances of precipitation of calcium etc. from tap water. That's the only reason the bisulfite is there. Alternatively mix the sulfite with distilled water. Theoretically the bath is a little more efficient at the higher pH of plain sodium sulfite but I wouldn't worry about it.

20g sodium sulfite/l + a few grams bisulfite is fine. In solution it's all the same. It is the sulfite ion that does the work, whether supplied by sodium sulfite or bisulfite/metabisulfite.

Follow Ilford's archival sequence (ie 10 minutes in the HCA bath with agitation). The short water wash before HCA treatment is important. Don't skip that or else the effectiveness/capacity of the HCA bath will be substantially reduced.