G Claron Compur vs Copal question

[RustBeltEcologies]

Hi there,

I just purchased a 305mm g claron factory mounted in an all black compur shutter. The lens serial is 14, xxx xxx and being that its in the latest black compur shutter, my guess is that it's from the early 90s? I've read that the g clarons from this era were factory mounted and spaced specifically with infinity focus in mind. I've also read that this era compur shutter is prone to issues and often needs servicing throughout their lifetime, where as a copal shutter from the same era isn't as prone to issues. I have a copal shutter that had a g claron mounted in it, so the aperture scale is all set for this lens. My question is this--would I be risking altering the spacing and focus on the lens if I mounted it into the copal shutter? Or would it be in my better interest to just leave the lens in the compur?

Thanks for any advice!

[RustBeltEcologies]

One more thing I should add is that the copal shutter is also more appealing because it has a T setting, which I often use on other shutters, and the compur does not.

[Dan Fromm]

My question is this--would I be risking altering the spacing and focus on the lens if I mounted it into the copal shutter? Or would it be in my better interest to just leave the lens in the compur?

Thanks for any advice!

You worry too much.

If you want to surrender to Internet scuttlebutt, swap the cells into a Copal. Then measure the lens' length -- front edge of front cell's barrel to rear edge of rear cell's barrel. If the lens' length is the same as it was in the Compur, all's well. If not, be sensible and put the cells back in the Compur, use it and stop worrying.

Are you sure that your Compur lacks a "T" setting? This isn't usual.

[John Layton]

There was a fairly recent post within which something was mentioned about Compur shutters being a bit more complicated to repair/overhaul/CLA than Copal shutters. Something about the metals used, as well as lubricants (or lack thereof).

At any rate...while I'd recently had the Copal #1 of my 210 Sironar N apart, and found it relatively easy to remove, clean/lube, and reassemble the slow speed mechanism, I'd also recently attempted the same with the Compur shutter on a (recently acquired) Rolleiflex 3.5F, and I think I've actually made it worse!

[Drew Wiley]

Dunno about the no.1's; but the all-black late Compur 3 shutters had more accurate speeds clear up to the top, whereas the highest settings on the Copal are always questionable at best. Yet we LF shooters rarely use the top speeds anyway. But there were two things I absolutely hated about the Compur 3 : it's lack of a real T setting, and it's distinct buzz effect, an actual vibration you can feel if you place your fingernail against a front camera standard. It's not enough of a buzz to affect a camera with a lot of mass, like a wooden 8x10; but it could distinctly penalize optimal sharpness of 4X5 cameras - not enough to affect publication shots, but certainly enough to wonder why you opted for that shutter instead of the Copal to begin with. Been there, done that.
But again, I can't speak for the no.1 Compur itself. I do have shorter focal length GC experience with no.1 Copal.

All factory-in-shutter GC's are superb at infinity reasonably stopped down, as well as retaining their special performance characteristics close-up, and of course, everything in between. No worries in that respect.

[David Lindquist]

You worry too much.

If you want to surrender to Internet scuttlebutt, swap the cells into a Copal. Then measure the lens' length -- front edge of front cell's barrel to rear edge of rear cell's barrel. If the lens' length is the same as it was in the Compur, all's well. If not, be sensible and put the cells back in the Compur, use it and stop worrying.

Are you sure that your Compur lacks a "T" setting? This isn't usual.

This got me to looking at my Compur shutters and shutter literature. The things I never particularly noticed...

First of all I have a brochure titled "THE KEY TO YOUR LARGE-FORMAT CAMERA", from Compur-Werk Friedrich Deckel, describing the Compound and Compur shutters. From 1961, based on what I think is a date code. Here it shows the No. 00 and No. 0 Synchro-Compur shutters having "B" but not "T". The No. 1 Synchro-Compur and the No. 2 Compur have both "T" and "B". Cosmetically all four have that serrated/saw-toothed speed-setting ring. I have a number of examples of the No. 1 shown, features a top speed of 1/400 second. Moving to that setting requires rather more effort than setting the slower speeds and cocking is harder.

Then I have two No. 0 Synchro-Compur shutters from the late 1960's - early 1970's (based on date of acquisition as new or on the serial number of the lens mounted therein.) They differ cosmetically from the earlier No. 0 model in that the speed setting ring now has a "blocky" sort of periphery. Both have "B" but not "T".

Moving along, I have a 180 mm Symmar-S, s/n 13636397 (so production date between October 1979 and January 1981). Mounted in a No. 1 Compur, its shutter differs cosmetically from the earlier version principally by having a "blocky" speed setting ring and being marked with the size "Compur 1." But clearly it is also a newer design mechanically as the top nominal speed is now 1/500 vs.1/400 and does not require any additional effort to set or cock. And this has "T" but not "B" setting. Let me repeat that, it has "T" but not "B" setting.

Finally I have a 1988 brochure from "Prontor-Werk Alfred Gauthier GmbH", part of the "Zeiss-Gruppe West Germany" describing what's probably the last of the line of the Compurs. The No. 0, the No. 1 and the No. 3 all have "B" but not "T" settings. It further comments that the No. 1 and No. 3 (referred to as "Compur 1" and "Compur 3") now have shutter speeds on the front as well as the periphery of the case and the No. 3 now has a top speed of 1/250.

David

[Mark Sampson]

Leave the lens in the Compur shutter and go make pictures with it.
All leaf shutters (even Copals) will need maintenance, sooner or later. Deal with that if/when it becomes a problem, not before

[RustBeltEcologies]

Thanks everyone for your replies! Definitely given me more to think about--and yes, I tend to overthink these things very much. When thinking about equipment that is known for issues, I always get nervous, wondering how many mechanics there will be in the future. I'll see so many ads for mechanics in old View camera magazines, now I know there are probably only a couple that still work on these shutters. But I'm sure more will come into working on old camera equipment in the future. I guess I'll test out the compur in the cold weather--seeing as I spend a lot of time photographing in cold winter weather. I've never had an issue with any of my copal shutters in freezing temps, so I'll let that make the final decision.

[Bernice Loui]

Careful what one finds-discovers, read then "believes" via the internet... without actual verification, testing and long term real world experience..

Had plenty of problems-issues with Copal shutters over the decades.. Had plenty of problems-issues with ANY mechanical shutter over the decades be they Compur, Compound, Prontor, Ilex, Alphax, Seiko, Sinar (Swiss made for Norma) and.... Any mechanical device is subject to mechanical ills...

Older Compur shutters with the 1,2,5,10,25 shutter speed sequence with the nice round iris are complex with plenty of highly precision moving parts inside. More complexity and related will result in more possible problems and the need for more maintenance and proper care. This innate need could easily project the perception these Compur shutters are full of problems and should be avoided.. They remain one of the all time fave shutters due to their round iris, they work problem free and are as reliable as any other mechanical shutter given they are exercised at least a few times per year and give a proper clean/lube/adjust by qualified personal.. often an expense most will not consider.

The later "block style" lettering Compur shutters have less complexity and less prone to problems and in many ways very similar to the Copal down to the non-round iris.. If one were to compare this vintage Compur to a Copal, the Compur shutter is higher quality in build, materials and all that.. These Compur shutters were more pricy than the Copal..

There is about zero reason to re-shutter this lens, if the Compur shutter functions and shutter speeds are within spec use it to make images.. Done.
If this Compur shutter has problems, have it properly serviced, then make images with it.. Done.

The idea of re-shuttering this lens due to reading stuff on the internet that Copal shutters have less problems than Compur is non-sense and un-necessary.

What should be known, Compur made a electronic shutter (Copal and Prontor also made electronic shutters) that is tops in every way. It is accurate, reliable and has a nice round iris...

Copal made a# 3s shutter with a round iris often found on older Japanese lenses like Fujinar and such.. from a time when in to out of focus rendition had value to photographers back then.. Once the Group f64 everything in perceived focus ideology took hold, majority of shutters grew non-round iris as what was once valued became no valued.


Bernice

I've also read that this era compur shutter is prone to issues and often needs servicing throughout their lifetime, where as a copal shutter from the same era isn't as prone to issues.

[RustBeltEcologies]

Thank you, Bernice for all of that! Definitely what I needed to hear to knock the sense into me and to chill with my time reading (slightly obsessively) on forums. The lens will not be reshuttered! Now onto exerting that same amount of energy into making photos and prints...