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Thread: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

  1. #21
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Quote Originally Posted by McAir View Post
    Thank you. That is one of the questions i had. Your comment makes sense.
    He reversed his comment in his next post and said his statement was incorrect.

  2. #22

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    He reversed his comment in his next post and said his statement was incorrect.
    That's really not quite true either. My original comments still apply to the Chamonix, since there's no way to easily transfer angle changes to the front standard. The Sinar P, and other cameras that have the tilt angle scales, could be used to combine rear tilt perspective correction with asymmetrical rear tilt focus. Even with a Sinar P, it would still be a complicated process that I would hardly consider to be any advantage. It's one of those cases where in theory it could be done.

    Since the Chamonix doesn't have any tilt angle scales, it's asymmetrical rear tilt is only like the Sinar in a kind of half-assed way. I'm not saying that it isn't useful, but it's definitely not giving you the same capability as a Sinar (or similar). With the Chamonix, the rear asymmetrical tilt is only useful for focusing convenience, and it sacrifices perspective control. If the rear tilt is small, the perspective change will probably be unnoticeable, so it's a quick and easy way to work. On the other hand, if perspective is important, then tilting the back for focus could screw things up royally. It's not a good or bad thing, it's just something to be aware of, and use with wisdom.

  3. #23

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Quote Originally Posted by sharktooth View Post
    That's really not quite true either. My original comments still apply to the Chamonix, since there's no way to easily transfer angle changes to the front standard. The Sinar P, and other cameras that have the tilt angle scales, could be used to combine rear tilt perspective correction with asymmetrical rear tilt focus. Even with a Sinar P, it would still be a complicated process that I would hardly consider to be any advantage. It's one of those cases where in theory it could be done.

    Since the Chamonix doesn't have any tilt angle scales, it's asymmetrical rear tilt is only like the Sinar in a kind of half-assed way. I'm not saying that it isn't useful, but it's definitely not giving you the same capability as a Sinar (or similar). With the Chamonix, the rear asymmetrical tilt is only useful for focusing convenience, and it sacrifices perspective control. If the rear tilt is small, the perspective change will probably be unnoticeable, so it's a quick and easy way to work. On the other hand, if perspective is important, then tilting the back for focus could screw things up royally. It's not a good or bad thing, it's just something to be aware of, and use with wisdom.
    This makes sense to me. So, I I am really wanting to increase emphasis on a foreground/or background element using rear tilt, then I must use the traditional iterative focusing methodology vs the asymmetrical. If I am understanding correctly.

  4. #24

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Asymmetrical Tilt on a field folder is questionable value and usefulness due to the way a field camera is often used (typically landscapes which is not camera movement demanding) and the lack of proper angle and linear measure scales (likely due to visual aesthetic expectation of what and how a field folder must "look" like). If these field folders were serious about allowing the user to fully and easily apply camera movements, they would apply ALL the proper and appropriate angle and linear scales on them..

    That said, example of using the rear standard to measure tilt angle then transfer that information to the front standard is a feature on the Sinar F.. IMO, front tilt or swing is more often used than rear tilt or swing. Design and application of Asymmetrical tilt on the front standard on a field folder would not be simple or easy due to the nature of how a field folder typically works.

    The Sinar F example of using the rear standard to measure the amount of tilt or swing needed, then transferred to the front standard which is possible due to angle scales on both front and rear standard. There is also the added feature of camera movement angles -vs- DOF per an added scale on the camera's rear standard. In this specific example, this system works Good.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    DOF
    Click image for larger version. 

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    DOF and transfer:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Link to Sinar F manual:
    https://cameramanuals.org/prof_pdf/sinar_f-02.pdf


    This previously posted info on camera movements from the Linhof book remains a useful reference on camera movements:
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ong-amp-Linhof


    Bernice







    Quote Originally Posted by sharktooth View Post
    That's really not quite true either. My original comments still apply to the Chamonix, since there's no way to easily transfer angle changes to the front standard. The Sinar P, and other cameras that have the tilt angle scales, could be used to combine rear tilt perspective correction with asymmetrical rear tilt focus. Even with a Sinar P, it would still be a complicated process that I would hardly consider to be any advantage. It's one of those cases where in theory it could be done.

    Since the Chamonix doesn't have any tilt angle scales, it's asymmetrical rear tilt is only like the Sinar in a kind of half-assed way. I'm not saying that it isn't useful, but it's definitely not giving you the same capability as a Sinar (or similar). With the Chamonix, the rear asymmetrical tilt is only useful for focusing convenience, and it sacrifices perspective control. If the rear tilt is small, the perspective change will probably be unnoticeable, so it's a quick and easy way to work. On the other hand, if perspective is important, then tilting the back for focus could screw things up royally. It's not a good or bad thing, it's just something to be aware of, and use with wisdom.

  5. #25

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Easier on the Sinar P/P2, essentially turn the knobs on the geared camera movement controls:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    DOF scale:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Link to Sinar P manual:
    https://sinar.swiss/assets/Uploads/S...-Manual-EN.PDF


    Bernice

  6. #26

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    I think we're overcomplicating things for the OP. Let me take a stab at oversimplification

    Asymmetrical tilts and swings are simply axis tilts/swings with the axes displaced off-center. Using them is very similar to using axis movements.

    In the specific case of back asymmetrical tilts, one chooses a distant object that lies in the desired plane of sharp focus and focuses that on the corresponding axis line on the ground glass (bottom of gg in this case). The back is then tilted around that axis until a foreground object that lies in the desired plane of focus is in sharp focus on the other axis (or reference) line.

    *** complication ahead! ***
    In theory, that should be all it takes to apply the movement. If the camera is designed well, the asymmetrical tilt/swing lines on the ground glass will be exactly where the actual axes are for the movements, so no refocusing should be needed once the initial focusing has been done. That said, camera engineering is rarely that precise and fine adjustments of focus are often needed.


    Once you have applied the movement to your satisfaction, then focusing comes into play. There are a number of different methods of focusing the view camera. If you've placed your plane of sharp focus with the movements on points that you want to focus on, then you're basically already done with focusing. The trick now is to find an f-stop that gives you the depth of field you desire. That's another can of worms, so I'll leave that for another thread.

    If you want to apply other movements, that can be done before or after applying the asymmetrical movements depending on which movements you use. If you apply front rise/fall or lateral shift on the front standard, then no refocusing will be needed; you can do these movements before or after applying your asymmetrical rear tilt or swing. However, if you want apply rear swings in addition to asymmetrical tilts, or or raise/lower the back, then you should apply those movements before the tilts, since you'll displace the ground glass and change the focus. Front swings added to rear tilts can be done before or after the tilts, but you'll need to check focus if you swing your original focus points out of position.

    The real issue with back tilts/swings is the changes they make in the image. Front tilts/swings do not do this. If you tilt the back back (i.e., the top of the back toward you), you'll make foreground objects appear larger and distant objects appear smaller. If that's what you're trying to do, great, but many times, this is undesirable (e.g., keeping vertical lines parallel in a building, etc.). In this case, it is better to position the camera back to give you the perspective rendering you want and use the tilts/swings on the front standard.

    May I suggest that you read the articles on the LF Homepage about focusing the view camera and choosing the f-stop. Once digested, they will help immensely.

    Best,

    Doremus

  7. #27

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Yes, or why Asymmetrical tilt on the camera rear standard is no as often used as front tilt regardless if the tilt is asymmetric or not..

    IMO, the asymmetrical tilt feature on the rear standard of a light weight field folder is more of a marketing moniker than real world image making useful feature. The two take around view cameras are 5x7 Sinar Norma, 6x9 Linhof Technikardan 23s (claimed to have asymmetrical movements when rotated side-ways) given the way both cameras are used, the asymmetrical movements are plain not relevant in real world image making. Far more relevant and important is the ability to apply precise camera movements in fraction of a degree with absolute stability essentially identically on front or rear camera standards is greatly more useful in many ways. Specifically if full lens aperture (typically f4.5) is used for film exposures, ala controlled plane of focus images, not everything in perceived focus images where exposure lens aperture is stopped down to f16 and smaller.

    How important, relevant and significant are camera movements are to your image goals?
    IMO, majority of landscape image which are created using a lightweight field folder is not demanding on camera movements.

    Bernice

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post

    The real issue with back tilts/swings is the changes they make in the image. Front tilts/swings do not do this. If you tilt the back back (i.e., the top of the back toward you), you'll make foreground objects appear larger and distant objects appear smaller. If that's what you're trying to do, great, but many times, this is undesirable (e.g., keeping vertical lines parallel in a building, etc.). In this case, it is better to position the camera back to give you the perspective rendering you want and use the tilts/swings on the front standard.

    May I suggest that you read the articles on the LF Homepage about focusing the view camera and choosing the f-stop. Once digested, they will help immensely.

    Best,

    Doremus

  8. #28

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Asymmetrical tilts and swings are just modifications of axis movements designed to make the photographer's job easier when applying these movements. They may be a bit faster or more precise than regular center-positioned axis movements, but really, there's no fundamental difference. Personally, I don't think they are much faster.

    Heck, I've got so used to base tilts on my field cameras that I think I'm just about as fast with them as other photographers would be with asymmetrical or axis tilts.

    The only thing the image really cares about is the relative position of film plane and lens. How any desired positioning of the two relative to each other is achieved is just a matter of engineering.

    Best,

    Doremus

  9. #29

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Yes, or why Asymmetrical tilt on the camera rear standard is no as often used as front tilt regardless if the tilt is asymmetric or not..

    IMO, the asymmetrical tilt feature on the rear standard of a light weight field folder is more of a marketing moniker than real world image making useful feature. The two take around view cameras are 5x7 Sinar Norma, 6x9 Linhof Technikardan 23s (claimed to have asymmetrical movements when rotated side-ways) given the way both cameras are used, the asymmetrical movements are plain not relevant in real world image making. Far more relevant and important is the ability to apply precise camera movements in fraction of a degree with absolute stability essentially identically on front or rear camera standards is greatly more useful in many ways. Specifically if full lens aperture (typically f4.5) is used for film exposures, ala controlled plane of focus images, not everything in perceived focus images where exposure lens aperture is stopped down to f16 and smaller.

    How important, relevant and significant are camera movements are to your image goals?
    IMO, majority of landscape image which are created using a lightweight field folder is not demanding on camera movements.

    Bernice
    No, none of the TK cameras have assymetrical movements in any position. When you turn them on their side you then have yaw free movements as the swing control is then beneath the tilt movement.
    Asymmetrical movement are something else entirely!

  10. #30

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    Re: Which first Rear Movement and Asymmetrical Tilt Chamonix 45F2

    Thanks for this clarification Bob, could not visualize how the TK could have asymmetrical movements (read this claim some where, no longer remember where) based on how the TK is built and operates.

    The Yaw Free thing is another "thing", another feature intended to ease/simplify combined camera movements. Again, a feature not a requirement.
    Sinar's AD promo of the "advantages" of Yaw Free, Sinar is not the only view camera to offer this perk.

    https://dynewskiphotography.com/sina...rmation-no-22/


    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Salomon View Post
    No, none of the TK cameras have assymetrical movements in any position. When you turn them on their side you then have yaw free movements as the swing control is then beneath the tilt movement.
    Asymmetrical movement are something else entirely!

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