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Thread: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

  1. #1

    The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    Hello,I am planning to buy a schneider ss-xl lens for my 810 camera.All the website told me it is 6 elements 4 groups but the construction drawing on the official catalog looks like it is 6 elements 5 groups,does anyone know the truth?thanks very much.
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  2. #2

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    Re: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    In real world image making with the Super Symmar XL, it's construction is of zero relevance. What is relevant is the actual real world optical performance of this lens. Image results for the SSXL is typical of that last generation of LF view camera lenses, contrasty, "snappy-sharp" and all that. It is a particular image style personalty that was popular during the last moments of studio based commercial AD images...

    The SSXL has more light fall of than the Biogon_ish or style wide angle lenses like Super Angulon, Grandagon, Fujinon & Nikkor SW and these lenses are physically larger. Angle of coverage is about the same. Using a ND center filter will improve the innate light fall off. Primary advantage of the SSXL is size and weight compared to the Biogon_ish wide angle design, but this is not without trade-offs.

    Having used both the 110mm & 150mm SSXL for decades, they are now just another lens in the set to be used when the personalty of the SSXL fits the image goals. These days the 115mm Grandagon has taken the place of the 110mm SSXL. Any of these LF wide angle lenses will easily produce excellent images when properly used. And no, the specific lens along will never create image excellence on it's own.

    As for design and construction.. The lens was designed by Hiltrud Ebbesmeier (Hiltrud Schitthoff, before marriage). The patent for the SSXL can be found here:
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US...nach+Schitthof


    Bernice

  3. #3

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    Re: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    In real world image making with the Super Symmar XL, it's construction is of zero relevance. What is relevant is the actual real world optical performance of this lens. Image results for the SSXL is typical of that last generation of LF view camera lenses, contrasty, "snappy-sharp" and all that. It is a particular image style personalty that was popular during the last moments of studio based commercial AD images...

    The SSXL has more light fall of than the Biogon_ish or style wide angle lenses like Super Angulon, Grandagon, Fujinon & Nikkor SW and these lenses are physically larger. Angle of coverage is about the same. Using a ND center filter will improve the innate light fall off. Primary advantage of the SSXL is size and weight compared to the Biogon_ish wide angle design, but this is not without trade-offs.

    Having used both the 110mm & 150mm SSXL for decades, they are now just another lens in the set to be used when the personalty of the SSXL fits the image goals. These days the 115mm Grandagon has taken the place of the 110mm SSXL. Any of these LF wide angle lenses will easily produce excellent images when properly used. And no, the specific lens along will never create image excellence on it's own.

    As for design and construction.. The lens was designed by Hiltrud Ebbesmeier (Hiltrud Schitthoff, before marriage). The patent for the SSXL can be found here:
    https://patents.google.com/patent/US...nach+Schitthof


    Bernice
    Bernice, you mis-spoke and linked the patent for the earlier Super Symmar HM (by, of course, the same inventor). Here is the U.S. patent for the Super Symmar XL: https://patents.google.com/patent/US...trud+Schitthof

    freesky1992, if you read the description and look at the drawings in the patent you'll see this optic is made of six lenses, two of which are cemented together. I think Schneider mis-spoke in their verbal description.

    David

  4. #4

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    Re: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    Yes David, you're correct. That is the patent for the Schneider HM..

    Bernice



    Quote Originally Posted by David Lindquist View Post
    Bernice, you mis-spoke and linked the patent for the earlier Super Symmar HM (by, of course, the same inventor). Here is the U.S. patent for the Super Symmar XL: https://patents.google.com/patent/US...trud+Schitthof

    freesky1992, if you read the description and look at the drawings in the patent you'll see this optic is made of six lenses, two of which are cemented together. I think Schneider mis-spoke in their verbal description.

    David

  5. #5

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    Re: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Yes David, you're correct. That is the patent for the Schneider HM..

    Bernice
    I'm curious about the inventor, Bernice. Do you know any more about her? What was her education, as in what did one need in Germany to do that sort of work for a place like Schneider? Googling her married name didn't seem to turn up anything, googling her maiden name only seemed to turn up patents.

    David

  6. #6

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    Re: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    Learned about Hiltrud Ebbesmeier from an article in View Camera magazine from the later 1990's about the Schneider Super Symmar XL. Had both 110mm & 150mm SSXL lenses before that article was published. Based on distant memory Hiltrud Ebbesmeier began work at Schneider else where, not as a lens designer. She discovered her talent for lens design at Schneider. The folks at Schneider then cultivated her lens design ambitions which resulted in the SSXL and other lens designs at Schneider.

    Another example not everything is or can be found on the "web"..

    My opinion of the SSXL has changed over the decades as much as the way current images are made. Caught up in the fashion of hard edge, contrasty, snappy images so common back then. The lens personality of the SSXL and other modern lenses from that time was much an image goal. Since that time decades ago, the image goals have changed lots.. away from that hard edge, contrasty, sharp and snappy image goal into something much softer with much greater depth of content.. Reflection of how I've changed over the decades in many ways.. This began decades ago with making cibachrome prints with the goal of taming it's innate contrasty personality. To achieve this meant lower contrast lenses (Kodak Ektar or Xenar or similar single coated Tessar) lower contrast color transparency film like Fuji Astia, controlled lighting to further tame contrast ratios, tight control of light color temperature and exposure, contrast masking during the print making process and working with highly skilled printers that fully understood what the print goals were.. All that was combined with B&W print making during that time..

    Still enjoy the images from the SSXLs today, but in a different way and used far less these days.


    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by David Lindquist View Post
    I'm curious about the inventor, Bernice. Do you know any more about her? What was her education, as in what did one need in Germany to do that sort of work for a place like Schneider? Googling her married name didn't seem to turn up anything, googling her maiden name only seemed to turn up patents.

    David

  7. #7

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    Re: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Learned about Hiltrud Ebbesmeier from an article in View Camera magazine from the later 1990's about the Schneider Super Symmar XL. Had both 110mm & 150mm SSXL lenses before that article was published. Based on distant memory Hiltrud Ebbesmeier began work at Schneider else where, not as a lens designer. She discovered her talent for lens design at Schneider. The folks at Schneider then cultivated her lens design ambitions which resulted in the SSXL and other lens designs at Schneider.

    Another example not everything is or can be found on the "web"..

    My opinion of the SSXL has changed over the decades as much as the way current images are made. Caught up in the fashion of hard edge, contrasty, snappy images so common back then. The lens personality of the SSXL and other modern lenses from that time was much an image goal. Since that time decades ago, the image goals have changed lots.. away from that hard edge, contrasty, sharp and snappy image goal into something much softer with much greater depth of content.. Reflection of how I've changed over the decades in many ways.. This began decades ago with making cibachrome prints with the goal of taming it's innate contrasty personality. To achieve this meant lower contrast lenses (Kodak Ektar or Xenar or similar single coated Tessar) lower contrast color transparency film like Fuji Astia, controlled lighting to further tame contrast ratios, tight control of light color temperature and exposure, contrast making during the print making process and working with highly skilled printers that fully understood what the print goals were.. All that was combined with B&W print making during that time..

    Still enjoy the images from the SSXLs today, but in a different way and used far less these days.


    Bernice
    Thank you very much Bernice. I should have that issue of View Camera in my collection. Now Just need to find it...

    David

  8. #8

    Re: The construction of Schneider Super-Symmar XL 210mm

    thanks to both of you guys,solve my problem completely����

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