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Thread: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

  1. #61
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    " Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar View Post
    Quality used equipment is very inexpensive now. The Sinar F2 I bought after two years of saving my pennies can now be bought for a day's wages in the US..."

    Kumar

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    My point is that a craftsman cares about his tools. If he buys crap, that's all he's going to get from his work. If someone can afford $200, spend $300. If they can afford $800, spend $1000. Up your game. Care about your tools and work; you'll get better results.
    A Sinar F2 is crap? I'm pretty sure Kumar's point was that really good tools in LF can be quite affordable at the moment. It's also bad advice to spend more than you can afford. No hobby is worth that.
    “You often feel tired, not because you've done too much, but because you've done too little of what sparks a light in you.”
    ― Alexander Den Heijer, Nothing You Don't Already Know

  2. #62

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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    If the OP could use some Linhof inspiration, here's what Roman Loranc can accomplish with his Linhof:
    https://www.romanloranc.com/

    And here's what John Sexton can do with his Linhof:
    https://shop.anseladams.com/collections/john-sexton

    To paraphrase Bernice what posted, the camera ain't the one taking the pictures so keep that in mind.

    Years ago I went out to buy a new tennis racket, knowing nothing about how tennis rackets have changed, so I asked a local tennis instructor what I should look for. He told me:
    "Find one in a color you like and get it." He told me.
    "If you like how it looks, you'll take it out more often"
    If you don't like how it looks, it'll sit in your closet, and that won't do you any good."

    It sounds like the OP likes the color of Linhof cameras.
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  3. #63
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    Basically, you need to home in on the distinct category of 4x5 potentially most useful to you before deciding on a specific model. And as per pricing, lots of very expensive items new are fairly common on the used market at far lower pricing. First, you have simple PRESS CAMERAS designed mainly for handheld or otherwise quickie work, with a minimum of features except possibly a rangefinder. Second, there are metal TECHNICAL CAMERAS like the Linhof Technkia and Horseman FA, which are more versatile, but still limited in a number of ways. Third, you have the broad category of MONORAIL CAMERAS which can be reconfigured in multiple manners relative to specific application, of which the Sinar system would be particularly obvious among many alternate choices. Then fifth, you have FOLDING FIELD CAMERAS, predominantly of wood or now composite material, which in the past were sometimes heavy, but now offers quite a few excellent lightweight options. This latter variety seem to hold it value best at the present because there are so many outdoor photographers out there who value optimal portability.

    My brother went the Technika route back when those were popular among outdoor photographers. I went with the Sinar monorail system instead for its much greater versatility. But I've supplemented that with a couple of field folders - a Phillips 8x10 and Ebony 4X5 for their greater portability when required. In other words, there is no one ideal choice, and different people obviously have many different opinions depending on what they do, can afford, and frankly, just what they are accustomed to.

    As far as dissing Sinar F2 field monorail cameras, I used that system for over three decades on hundreds on mountain and desert bacpacking trips, and it held up superbly with a little periodic maintenance, and allowed me to use the long focal length lenses I prefer in a manner no technical camera like a Technicka would. Also weighs less IF you factor in how easy it is to balance a monorail on a tripod. You want to consider the CUMULATIVE WEIGHT of your system, not just the bare camera weight. Likewise, if you need a long 400 mm focal length for a Technika, for example, you require a relative bulky heavy telephoto design, whereas with a monorail you just screw on an extra rail section, which takes less than a minute, and then can use a small conventional lens.

    But I currently prefer a vintage Sinar Norma monorail rather than the F system, though that former heavily used gear of mine is still in fine operational shape. One reason Sinar used pricing is so affordable now is that it's so abundant. And that can be important in term of obtaining extra components for sake of either a more flexible system, a format change (like from 4x5 to 8X10), or critically, for sake of convenient replacement and repair components if needed.

    Anything Sexton or Loranc did with a Technika could have been done equally well with any number of 4x5 cameras of significantly different design. But once you do jump into the water, take time to get really familiar with the equipment you have chosen, so that operation of it will be spontaneous and second-nature. That is often far more important than nitpicking model specifics.

  4. #64

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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    This is extremely good and prudent advice for those new to this LF view camera stuff..

    Fact remains, the two primary features and advantages of using a view camera today (film or digital) remains as:

    ~Lens/optics choices with few limits. This is not true to cameras with a fixed lens mount and fixed to the camera box image recorder be it digital or film.

    ~Ability to move the lens and imager relative to their once fixed or reference position.

    These to facts and features are the primary items that differentiates a "view camera" from a fixed to the box camera. With these features comes a cost, that cost is often complexity, size-weight-bulk and ...

    There was a time when photography was taught as a profession and using a view camera was a topic of learning. The most common view camera learning tool back then was a modest monorail camera. This was often used due to it's ability to easily illustrate and facilitate learning and understanding how camera movements work and applied. Little if anything has changed since then. Thus the recommendation to get a high quality and modular monorail (sinar F) at an absolutely bargain $ today is excellent advise. This coupled with proper ways and means for learning how camera movements goes a far long ways to fully and properly understand what much of this view camera stuff is about. This also figures into the universe of optics, how they work, what they can and can never do..

    Take the time to read this content on camera movements from a Linhof view camera book:
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ong-amp-Linhof

    ~Until a full and proper understanding and enough mastery of camera movements is learned, the view camera becomes essentially a larger sheet of film camera and not a lot more..

    This is IMO why there are SO many new to this LF view camera stuff that are driven to hand held foldable like Technika, Graphic, Toyo/Horseman 45A and ... with uber full aperture lenses like f2.8/f3.5 Xenotar/Planar and similar with just enough image circle that covers 4x5 at full aperture (there was a time and place not long ago when these large aperture lenses were not desirable due to their limited image circle as view camera folks back then placed image circle ability and performance above large lens aperture) . This image making outfit is much an extension of the fixed lens to the box camera with a sheet of film instead of a digital image sensor or roll film. In many ways outfits like these are being used as they were designed and they will continue to produce the images they are designed to produce.. A specialized sheet film image. Except outfits like this do Not fully take advantage of all a view camera can offer for camera movements and lens/optics possibilities... pinching the image makers set of image making tools and possibilities for creative/expressive image making.

    Personally, the view camera experience is mostly opposite from B.S. Kumar. It was coached learning on a Sinar F in a controlled studio environment by more than one highly experienced view camera photographer. Learning to view the GG image, basic focusing then camera movements (extensive), exposure and studio lighting. Countless Pull_A_Roids and sheets of 4x5 film were burned in this learning process. As with many things and skills, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice... after a few years of using the same Sinar F with a variety of lenses/optics in studio, outdoors and any place that outfit can follow, enough of this view camera stuff was learned and understood.. That was decades ago.. This foundation also became why the tolerance for field folders is limited. This the same foundation as to why the Technika_s (4x5 & 5x7) eventually found new homes. Nice to use, nicely made, but the camera's movement and lens capabilities made them a no thanks.. IMO, there are far Better field foldable cameras today than the Technika like the Canham DLC..

    The current Linhof Technikardan 23s is tolerated due to it's ability for camera movements front and rear, good roll film back system and moderate size/weight (never folded for transport, too much hassle). It is not as rigid/stable as a really good view camera can be, not quite enough camera/bellows extension, no camera shutter system, inability to balance the camera based on camera extension...
    Why roll film 6x9 view camera instead of 4x5 or other sheet film.. Ability for camera movements on 120 roll film is a significant plus over any fixed lens to the camera body camera.. Much about camera movements and variety of lenses to be used again, greatly less about the camera being a Linhof as the Arca Swiss, Cambo, Toyo or similar high quality 6x9 view camera will do much similar to meet this need.

    Prime view camera system remains Sinar.. along with pile of barrel lenses and few in shutter lenses for this Sinar system.

    Lowest weight foldability, portability, camping_ability or backpacking_ability are non-considerations. Camera system abilities are the prime reason for using a view camera. For travel, there are other fixed lens box cameras that easily do FAR better than any view camera..


    After all this text, images made, images created is much about and by the individual image maker.. Far more important and significant than any camera is light, form, composition which is the basic vocabulary of expressive images.

    Bernice









    Quote Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar View Post
    I'm not old enough to give advice. My suggestion runs counter to what most people have said above. Buy a cheap monorail camera and learn movements. That is the essence of large format photography. If you just want a big negative, build a box camera for the cost of some wood and your time. Something like a Toyo D series, Sinar F1, etc would be ideal. They are bulkier than field cameras, but can be folded up quite compactly, particularly with a short rail. In a year or so, you'll figure out which movements you use most, and decide if a field camera suits your image goals and budget. You can either sell the monorail or keep it for those times when a field camera simply won't cut it.

    My suggestion comes directly from my experience. My first 4x5 camera was a Linhof Super Technika V with 65, 90, 150 and 210mm lenses. At that time, I did all kinds of photography to pay the rent - industrial, still life, architecture. I read everything on large format photography that was available pre-internet and spent all my spare money shooting and learning. Two years later, I saved up enough to buy a Sinar F2 and a Linhof adapter lens board. I read the Sinar Know How book cover to cover and did all the exercises. Suddenly, all the setups I struggled with the Linhof became simple and took minutes instead of hours. I sold the Linhof camera, and didn't touch a field camera until I moved to Japan, where I bought a Wista 45D. It has its place as something that I'll use when I know the images I'm looking for will not need the capabilities of the Sinar.

    As always, YMMV.

    Kumar

  5. #65
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    As a lifelong jack of all things mechanical

    I used to watch car racing most at Road America

    The years of Paul Newman Racing were long https://www.skoda-motorsport.com/en/...rities-racing/

    I met him and others

    I have seen the same cars become very valuable and hobby raced by fools

    I gave what I could and raced anywhere as they did

    A few cameras are nothing dangerous

    Just do it

    Time is short for us all
    Tin Can

  6. #66

    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar View Post
    I read the Sinar Know How book cover to cover and did all the exercises. Suddenly, all the setups I struggled with the Linhof became simple and took minutes instead of hours. Kumar
    Yes. This is important, especially specifically with Sinar F. I too started 40+ years ago with an F+, I still have my original copy of "PHOTO KNOW HOW", filled with the B&W prints I mounted inside as I completed each exercise. This is a fantastic way to learn the Sinar F+, Learning by doing! Sinar had great "software" support in the day. They were great educators. Learning to use the angle swing/tilt calculators, and the depth of field calculators, can be intimidating and confusing.

    Anybody using a view camera will benefit from getting this book (used) and COMPLETING the exercises, not just reading them. Make the prints and put them in the book to refer to.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/18548757754...Bk9SR7qKw92CYQ
    Flikr Photos Here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/

    “The secret of getting ahead is getting started.”
    ― Mark Twain

  7. #67

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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    I think a cheap old monorail is a great tool for learning what a LF camera can do.
    In fact I have a Graphic View II around here someplace which I stubbornly refuse to part with.
    For an economical point of entry, I agree with B.S. Kumar.
    The OP doesn't seem too troubled over cost though, and good for him.
    Perhaps we can coax him into starting with an 8x10.
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  8. #68
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    My brother drove around in a Porsche with his Linhof cases in the trunk. Rounding a corner near Painted Cave adjacent to Jane Fonda's ranch, a big garbage truck came directly at him in the wrong lane. He would have been better off in a rusty Dodge Dart. His back was messed up ever since, and the Porsche was of course totalled. Price doesn't tell you everything.

    I probably know more about fine tools than 99.999 % of the people in this country. But I also know when to leave them alone when what you really need is an ordinary rusty old crowbar. It's called the right tool for the job, whether that means expensive or downright cheap.

  9. #69
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    I had a close friend squashed dead by garbage truck

    Not the fault of the truck driver

    I used to visit his grave


    so many now dead I lose track

    I find it strange we bury and remember

    Then archeologist dig up many others

    sacred ground my ass


    I want my ashes tossed to the wind ASAP
    Tin Can

  10. #70

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    Re: Help me choose 4x5 camera to buy in 2022

    Quote Originally Posted by hiroh View Post
    Guys, I watched couple videos about Lihof and read about the history and I pretty much already fell in love with the company and their cameras, I just need to research a bit and see what model suits me the best. Thank you all for your helpful advices. I hope I'll become an active member of this forum very soon!

    Oh, btw, is there any particular place where should I look for Linhof cameras? Except eBay and Craigslist, which I avoid for anything valuable. I tried KEH, but they don't have any Linhof cameras on stock.

    Bob Salomon suggested Camera West, but if its website is accurate it no longer carries Linhof although it has one used Linhof in stock.

    I can recommend Foto Care in New York City. It's an excellent dealer. Its website doesn't show any large format, but in fact it regularly carries used large format gear including lenses. Just phone.

    I agree with the earlier recommendation for Linhof Studio in the U.K., and would add Teamwork Photo in London for used gear. I've done business with, and like, both vendors. On export to the U.S. you won't pay UK VAT.

    My experience purchasing used equipment from B&H has been uniformly good. I've also had very good experiences using the classified section here.
    Arca-Swiss 8x10/4x5 | Mamiya 6x7 | Leica 35mm | Blackmagic Ultra HD Video
    Sound Devices audio recorder, Schoeps & DPA mikes
    Mac Studio/Eizo with Capture One, Final Cut, DaVinci Resolve, Logic

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