What in the heck is going on?

**John Kasaian** · 20-Oct-2022, 12:56

https://www.recreation.gov/?vgo_ee=r...hjC9vauJg30%3D

Avoiding the political, I must ask: Are we now getting charged for recreation on public lands?

**Drew Wiley** · 20-Oct-2022, 15:08

This is nothing new, John. It's just a convenience for making many kinds of advance reservations, whether fee-based campsites, special guided tours, or obtaining wilderness permits. A modest token fee is involved, plus the charge for the thing itself, minus whatever senior etc discounts potentially apply as usual. The unified Govt site pretty much took over during the past couple of Covid years when walk-in park offices were understaffed and afraid of contagion themselves. Now it's probably a permanent model. I have an account with it; so do many many others. It has no effect on what were previously wide-open opportunities. And it doesn't necessarily apply exclusively like the Northwest Pass permit in portions of WA State, or the Snowpark permit required in winter just uphill from you. You just log on, and access even detailed maps of formal campsites, and reserve your preferred space in advance, before someone else does.

For example, driving through Capitol Reef National Park for free, and even stopping and exploring, still doesn't require an entry fee or even showing a permit like most NP's. But there is a charge for the particular little side road past the Visitor Center where the maintained official campground is, as well as the most popular and probably now somewhat crowded entrance to a particular side canyon hike, with its maintained picnic ground and damned tour bus parking area, exactly the kind of spot I avoid, and which probably warrants a fee. Most such NP's lose actually lose money, and depend on surplus funds from the really popular parks, like Yos, Jellystone, and GC. So charging for just certain optional amenities probably makes sense.

The same Govt site is now used for even State Park camp site reservations. Otherwise, you can still drive in and hope to find something; but it might be a crap shoot. Lots and lots of people are using those facilities these days, especially during peak season if they're of the more developed variety of camping spot, attracting motorhomes and so forth.

Times have changed. Certain hikes in Utah SW Utah canyons around Zion which once offered near total solitude have how been so heavily web publicized that they now need daily quotas requiring advance reservations, lest they become trampled to death. Some places now even have lotteries to see who gets to go or not. And of course, Yosemite has recently instituted a daily quota entry system during peak season, which will probably remain in effect. Those are necessary management decisions to keep the parks reasonably intact and manageable. But it has little effect on the vast majority of public lands, whether FS or walk-in wilderness usage of NP's and designated Wilderness Areas, other than simple advance Wilderness permits in some case, where the fee is merely a shortcut alleviating literal paperwork, as well as for sake of the usual statistics and rescue monitoring. Ten bucks typically for a wilderness permit. You just print out a copy and take it with you; generally no need to stop at some Ranger Station and stand in line waiting till it's your turn to hear the usual lecture and fill out the paperwork.

**John Layton** · 21-Oct-2022, 04:40

Just a brief glance over the linked site...noticing the term "equal access" under the topic heading of "Lottery," does not quite cut it for me. Why not just be honest and address the idea of these lotteries in the context of preservation?

**Drew Wiley** · 21-Oct-2022, 08:02

John, I think all of this is a work in progress, put together rather clumsily at first due to a crisis. And because a variety of agencies are involved, sometimes with differing priorities, for more specific information you need to link back to their own respective websites. And to a degree, regular FS stations and BLM and NP park offices are up and running again, and can be phoned if needed. Other than the particularly overwhelming nature of vehicle travel to popular areas these days, which can stress things, there doesn't seem to be any overriding philosophical or political reason behind the combined the nature of the site. It just brings a sense of order and convenience to the process, and also a bit of PR optimism, at at time when everyone seems to be complaining.

During the peak of covid when parks were understaffed and the wildfires particularly bad here in CA, there was almost an epidemic of another nature - hordes of people entered backcountry trails without permits and caused a rescue nightmare, while beach roads here on parts of the coast almost turned into parking lots months on end with illegal camping. But Ironically, the current more automated method has led to lots of unprepared naive people wandering into canyons like the Zion Narrows relatively uniformed - hence the especially bad flashflood incidents this summer. It takes awhile to iron these things out and find practical solutions. Now that I'm getting older I personally need to find very quiet backpacking destinations that don't require considerable distance and heavy amounts of supplies, since I still need to carry a fair amount of photo gear weight. And yes, I do have a bucket list of those. But I sure won't broadcast them.

**jnantz** · 21-Oct-2022, 17:42

Originally Posted by John Kasaian

https://www.recreation.gov/?vgo_ee=r...hjC9vauJg30%3D

Avoiding the political, I must ask: Are we now getting charged for recreation on public lands?

Hi John
I recently almost booked a weekend at a campground in the WMNF and they've always charged a few dollars for a campsite.
I'm glad too, because they are always really "nice-nice" if you know what I mean.
John

**John Kasaian** · 21-Oct-2022, 19:32

Hi John.
Providing campsites is a service, I get that.
Some parks are way over crowded, I get that too.
But the website I linked sounds like we need a permit (they'd be happy to sell) for taking a simple walk in the woods.
That was my concern

Have a great time on your camping trip.
There's nothing quite like being immersed in Autumn foliage.
I'm jealous!
Are you taking your family?

**jnantz** · 22-Oct-2022, 04:20

Originally Posted by John Kasaian

Hi John.
Providing campsites is a service, I get that.
Some parks are way over crowded, I get that too.
But the website I linked sounds like we need a permit (they'd be happy to sell) for taking a simple walk in the woods.
That was my concern

Have a great time on your camping trip.
There's nothing quite like being immersed in Autumn foliage.
I'm jealous!
Are you taking your family?

Thanks !

It was a couple of weekends ago, it was nice .. got super cold and we dodged the rain

. sadly poor little Ernie the 1lb full grown pig, and his friend the 6 legged dog aren't at the fair anymore, I guess it's politically incorrect to have a carnival with fake freeksow animals (Ernie was a piglet, and the 6 legged dog always had something that looked like a coat hanger/string with fake plastic legs, but they were fun to "peep"

**John Kasaian** · 22-Oct-2022, 04:34

Originally Posted by jnantz

Thanks !

It was a couple of weekends ago, it was nice .. got super cold and we dodged the rain

. sadly poor little Ernie the 1lb full grown pig, and his friend the 6 legged dog aren't at the fair anymore, I guess it's politically incorrect to have a carnival with fake freeksow animals (Ernie was a piglet, and the 6 legged dog always had something that looked like a coat hanger/string with fake plastic legs, but they were fun to "peep"

A warm Cinnamon roll on a chilly rainy day at the fair sounds wonderful!

**John Layton** · 22-Oct-2022, 04:49

Just as I lay here waking up with my coffee...thinking about posting something about there being "too many Johns"...I suddenly feel the urge to....go to the John!