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Thread: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

  1. #1

    510 Pyro - First Impressions

    No prints yet, this is based on inspection of wet negs...

    Tri-X 4x5 exposed at ASA 320
    Pyro 510 1:400
    60 min semistand: 3 min prewet, 2 min initial agitation 15 sec agitation @ 31min
    Open tank, minimal suspension

    Initial Impressions:

    • Negatives show deeper stain associated with Pyrogallol (like PMK)
    • Shadows suggest film hit full speed
    • There appear to be some hints of transition effects on cloud edges similar to PMK, but only printing can confirm this
    • One of the negatives shows striping effects in the clouds but I cannot tell yet if that was just the scene or a development artifact


    In general, all the howling about how 510 isn't any good seems unfounded.

    I won't know about acuity and edge effects until I print.

    More to follow.
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  2. #2
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    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    Thanks for the report!
    Excited for “the rest of the story”…


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3

    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    I have now tested 510 Pyro with 4x5 films both at 1:300 (Fompan 200) and 1:400
    (Tri-X, Fomapan 200) with Semistand development:

    3 min presoak
    2 min continuous agitation @68F
    Stand
    15 sec agitation @31min
    Stand
    End at 60min


    Observations

    Note that these are from magnified examinations of the negatives and scanning
    one of them, not based on silver prints:

    1. The developer has nearly the consistency of honey
    and cannot be poured, but requires a syringe.

    2. I do not see the mid-tone microcontrast that, say, Pyrocat-HD
    produces, at least, it's not as pronounced.

    3. To my eye, the negatives lack the edge effects and acuity
    I get with Semistand Pyrocat-HD negatives. NOT NOTED IN ACTUAL PRINTS - 7.16.2022

    4. Although 510 is Pyrogallol based, it seems to actually produce less
    stain than Pyrocat-HD for the exact same subject.

    Conclusions

    It might be possible to get better results by further fiddling
    with 510 dilutions, but I see no compelling reason to use this
    developer.

    Pyrocat-HD is easier to handle and produces sharper negatives, at least
    to the degree I've tested so far.

    The claim of lower grain may be because the developer is acting with an
    increased solvent effect, which would also explain the lower sharpness.
    Again, more testing would be indicated, and - again - I'm not going to bother.
    Last edited by tundra; 16-Jul-2022 at 12:19.
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  4. #4

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    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    #1 is a fact; that stuff is hard to pull up even in a good syringe. I didn't like that at all. I think I recognize #2. That is to say, I just preferred the tonal relationships the same film made in Pyrocat vs. 510. Perhaps we're talking about the same thing.

    Re: #4: this one is tricky to judge by the naked eye because the stain color is different. If you keep in mind that the stain from 510 is more greenish vs. the more brown stain from Pyrocat, you might find the quantitative difference isn't so big. I haven't done measurements on it.

    Sounds like you hit pretty much the same spot I did a few years ago when I tried 510. It worked OK, but it just wasn't superior to other developers that had slight advantages over this one for me.

  5. #5

    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    Anything more dilute than 1:100 is bound to be problematic due to the very low amount of developing agents in the working solution. Combined with stand/semistand, this is a sure recipe for inconsistent results.

    For ease of measurement and pouring, it might be useful to dilute the concentrate with equal amount of Propylene glycol so that you use twice the amount than recommended.

  6. #6

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    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    I've followed this thread with interest because I've used a lot of 510-Pyro for many rolls of 120 and sheets of LF film (4x5 and 8x10) and I've never noticed all the issues posted herein. I use a child medicine syringe to dispense the developer and don't find it problematic. I do rate my film lower than I would with, say, Pyrocat-HD but, in my experience, you have to do that with most pyrogallol-based formulas--I've used PMK, WD2D, and ABC Pyro. I've always used 510-Pyro at the standard 1:100 dilution and have processed in both hand tanks and on my Jobo in Expert Drums without issues. Yes, the stain is different from Pyrocat-HD but that's to be expected. I have no way to measure or quantify edge effects but I can say that in glancing light across the emulsion the image looks etched into the base. I've seen this same thing with Pyrocat-HD negatives. I still do use Pyrocat-HD for certain development techniques but have to keep it fairly fresh as I've had it die on me suddenly and without warning. I've used 510-Pyro until it's pretty much black and the negatives are always fine. Not trying to convince anybody that 510-Pyro is just as good as any of the other pyro-based formulas...just thought I'd post my experience for comparison.

  7. #7

    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Raghu Kuvempunagar View Post
    Anything more dilute than 1:100 is bound to be problematic due to the very low amount of developing agents in the working solution. Combined with stand/semistand, this is a sure recipe for inconsistent results.

    For ease of measurement and pouring, it might be useful to dilute the concentrate with equal amount of Propylene glycol so that you use twice the amount than recommended.
    I routinely dilute Pyrocat-HD 1.5:1:200 or even 1.5:1:300 and get consistent and excellent results Semistanding across a wide variety of films. The only film that's had any real problem with it, is very old (1974) Plus-X sheet film that showed bad bromide drag no matter what I did. That same film did fine in D-23 1:1.
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  8. #8

    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by tundra View Post
    I routinely dilute Pyrocat-HD 1.5:1:200 or even 1.5:1:300 and get consistent and excellent results Semistanding across a wide variety of films. The only film that's had any real problem with it, is very old (1974) Plus-X sheet film that showed bad bromide drag no matter what I did. That same film did fine in D-23 1:1.
    Any reason why you didn't use the recommended dilution of 1:100 for 510-Pyro? Any dilution of 510-Pyro weaker than 1:100 is to be treated with skepticism due the very low amount of developing agents and the propensity of Pyrogallol to get oxidised quickly. Even Zone Imaging warns against using higher dilutions if one cares about image quality:
    "510 Pyro is supplied as a liquid concentrate diluted for 1:100 one-shot use. However, it can be further diluted for economy though there will be a reduction in image quality and longer development times."

  9. #9

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    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    Ok, but arguably pyrocatechol is likewise easily oxidized, dilutions beyond 1:1:100 are likewise regarded with suspicion by some...and at the same time it works for OP and many others. Apparently tundra wanted to do a comparison within process parameters that are normal for him.
    Who's to stop you or me to run other tests? (Well, I did, you know the story.)

  10. #10

    Re: 510 Pyro - First Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Raghu Kuvempunagar View Post
    Any reason why you didn't use the recommended dilution of 1:100 for 510-Pyro? Any dilution of 510-Pyro weaker than 1:100 is to be treated with skepticism due the very low amount of developing agents and the propensity of Pyrogallol to get oxidised quickly. Even Zone Imaging warns against using higher dilutions if one cares about image quality:
    "510 Pyro is supplied as a liquid concentrate diluted for 1:100 one-shot use. However, it can be further diluted for economy though there will be a reduction in image quality and longer development times."
    Yes, if I were inclined to do more tests, I would try 1:100. But I am seeing nothing in 510 that compels me to try and tune it further. It produced entirely printable negatives, but the outcomes were generally inferior to my dialed-in Pyrocat-HD process. If/when I get bored or have more time, I may return to visit 510. In the mean time, I am going to try to mix it with Propylene Glycol to try and make the stock solution more manageable. What I don't know is whether it will go into solution with room temp PG or if I have to preheat it first.
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