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Thread: Goerz red dot lens board removal

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
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    knoxville TN
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    9

    Goerz red dot lens board removal

    Hello my friends, I bought this perfect little lens I want to use with my Linhof boards, does this lens screw off the lens board ? Just wanted opinions before starting, this is my first old school lens.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    Sheridan, Colorado
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    1,670

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    Usually the shutter is attached with a lock ring/jam nut on the rear, but I don't see one. I assume the entire shutter & lens are simply screwed in to the board. Those three bolts on the rear suggest a threaded flange was bolted onto the front. Have you tried unscrewing the shutter -- turning it COUNTER-clockwise?
    P.S. Looks like a GREAT lens!

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Central Mother Lode, California
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    573

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    Yes, usual practice with an Ilex shutter like that was to use the supplied flange, the threaded fitment that is attached to the front of the lens board either by screws that then have a nut put on, or in this case the holes in the lens board were tapped and the screws threaded into them. As xkaes says, the shutter should unscrew by turning it counter-clockwise (when it is facing you as in the photo.)

    And as xkaes says, it looks like a fine example of a 12 inch Red Dot Artar, probably relatively late US production, guessing late 1960's.

    David
    Last edited by David Lindquist; 24-Jun-2022 at 10:14. Reason: correction

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    710

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    You might need to unscrew the rear cells from the shutter before unscrewing the shutter from the lens board.
    Don't force anything!
    You will need to remove the threaded flange from the front of the lens board, and mount it on your Linhof board...or get another flange for your Linhof board if you'll use the lens on multiple cameras.
    Great lens...I have its twin, mounted in a Copal #1.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    3,341

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    OEM Goerz APO artars mounted in shutter do not have lens cells that thread direct into a shutter. Goerz made adapter rings specifically fitted to each lens cell set to fit a given shutter. The parts are "thread" interchangeable, the dimensions of the individual parts are different and should never be interchanged as they are specifically set up for the lens cell set and shutter. This is how Goerz deleted the modern solution of applying shims as needed to a given lens cell set to match/fit to a modern shutter.

    Front view:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	APO artar front.jpg 
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ID:	228483

    Back view:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	APO artar back.jpg 
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ID:	228484

    Side view:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	APO artar side.jpg 
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    Not a lot to this other than un-screw the lens by counter-clockwise rotation to remove the lens/shutter from the mounting flange.

    ~Goerz lens flanges are non-standard diameter. This means boring out a current industry standard shutter hole sized lens board (ala Copal and ...) to fit the Goerz flange. Then mark the location of the three screw holes after the shutter location to the lens board is figured out, then drill/thread the holes to mount the lens flange to lens board.~

    Goerz APO artar vintage lens, maybe. They remain one of the highly faved lenses to this day. Used at f16 to f45, they easily equal or better many "modern" lens for optical performance with excellent color rendition, moderate contrast, extremely low distortion and all that stuff. The trade off, smaller image circle compared to a Dagor, Plasmat or Tessar.



    Bernice

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    knoxville TN
    Posts
    9

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    OEM Goerz APO artars mounted in shutter do not have lens cells that thread direct into a shutter. Goerz made adapter rings specifically fitted to each lens cell set to fit a given shutter. The parts are "thread" interchangeable, the dimensions of the individual parts are different and should never be interchanged as they are specifically set up for the lens cell set and shutter. This is how Goerz deleted the modern solution of applying shims as needed to a given lens cell set to match/fit to a modern shutter.

    Front view:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	APO artar front.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	42.1 KB 
ID:	228483

    Back view:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	APO artar back.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	47.8 KB 
ID:	228484

    Side view:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	APO artar side.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	35.9 KB 
ID:	228485


    Not a lot to this other than un-screw the lens by counter-clockwise rotation to remove the lens/shutter from the mounting flange.

    ~Goerz lens flanges are non-standard diameter. This means boring out a current industry standard shutter hole sized lens board (ala Copal and ...) to fit the Goerz flange. Then mark the location of the three screw holes after the shutter location to the lens board is figured out, then drill/thread the holes to mount the lens flange to lens board.~

    Goerz APO artar vintage lens, maybe. They remain one of the highly faved lenses to this day. Used at f16 to f45, they easily equal or better many "modern" lens for optical performance with excellent color rendition, moderate contrast, extremely low distortion and all that stuff. The trade off, smaller image circle compared to a Dagor, Plasmat or Tessar.



    Bernice
    Bernice thank you so much for the wonderful information and details, and answering my next question about mounting on a Linhof board !


    Lens is off the board now


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,341

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    FYI, typical optical results for an APO artar.. any less the specific lens has a problem.
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...420-microscope


    Bernice

  8. #8

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    FYI, typical optical results for an APO artar.. any less the specific lens has a problem.
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...420-microscope


    Bernice
    Hi, Bernice

    Thank you for posting the reference to your thread with the scanned images. It's very instructive in several regards, particularly the excellence of Red Dot Artar lenses in factory-new condition and the need to optimize scanner focus. I too seem to recall that Goerz hand-optimized each RDA at the factory, hence the custom adapters for each lens.

    How would you compare the post-war Red Dot Artars to other Dialyte-pattern lenses such as the post-war Kodak 203/7.7 Ektar and the Schneider 305/9 Repro-Claron? I am currently running some comparative 5x7 tests on such of the above lenses as I have and would be interested in your experience.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    3,341

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    Not just scanner focus, scanners cannot match the optical performance of a really good optical microscope for a long list of technical realities.

    Settled into Goerz RDA having tried-used many of these APO dialyte formula lens designs. They have excellent optical performance with moderate contrast and good out of focus rendition if used with the round iris barrel and not stopped down too much. Similar performance from Rodenstock APO ronar non-multicoated and APO nikkor. Sinar versions and likely later versions of APO ronar are multicoated. These have slightly higher contrast than the single coated versions. The non-coated versions have the lowest contrast and prone to flare if not well shaded. Seems their variations are more contrast rendition than resolution or distortion (about nil) and in-to out of focus rendition.

    The 203mm f7.7 Kodak Ektar is the odd one of the lot. Very good lens.

    Currently have all four dialyte lens formula variants.

    ~APO artar, most are in barrel. One ~210mm f9 in shutter for the TK23s. The 203mm f7.7 Ektar stays in the TK23s outfit along with a 127mm Ektar.

    ~One 300mm f9 APO "Sinaron" ronar that lived in a DBM mount, moved over to a copal# 1 shutter used on the TK23s.. The TK23s has enough camera/bellows extension to use this focal length no significant issues.

    ~Rest are a mix of APO artar, APO ronar, APO nikkor in barrel from 4" to 30" focal length. Used dependent on focal length, not brand as the differences in performance is not significant.

    Seldom mentioned, Boyer APO saphir. A lesser known APO process lens made with a Heilar lens formula. These are VERY GOOD...

    Gave up on the Schneider Repo-Claron long ago due to the Thoriated optical glass which yellows affecting color balance (this was the era when best color balance for color transparencies was a prime consideration). Notable, Schneider discontinued offering their Repo-Claron after acquiring Goerz America. Schneider continued to produce APO artar to the end of production.


    For images requiring taking apertures of f16 to f45, APO process lenses remains the choice.
    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Kashi View Post
    Hi, Bernice

    Thank you for posting the reference to your thread with the scanned images. It's very instructive in several regards, particularly the excellence of Red Dot Artar lenses in factory-new condition and the need to optimize scanner focus. I too seem to recall that Goerz hand-optimized each RDA at the factory, hence the custom adapters for each lens.

    How would you compare the post-war Red Dot Artars to other Dialyte-pattern lenses such as the post-war Kodak 203/7.7 Ektar and the Schneider 305/9 Repro-Claron? I am currently running some comparative 5x7 tests on such of the above lenses as I have and would be interested in your experience.

  10. #10

    Re: Goerz red dot lens board removal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post

    Seldom mentioned, Boyer APO saphir. A lesser known APO process lens made with a Heilar lens formula. These are VERY GOOD...

    Gave up on the Schneider Repo-Claron long ago due to the Thoriated optical glass which yellows affecting color balance (this was the era when best color balance for color transparencies was a prime consideration). Notable, Schneider discontinued offering their Repo-Claron after acquiring Goerz America. Schneider continued to produce APO artar to the end of production.


    For images requiring taking apertures of f16 to f45, APO process lenses remains the choice.
    Bernice
    I use a 305 Repro-Claron on 5x7 BW and it's certainly very sharp with adequate contrast. I also compared my 14" RDA with a 14"/360 Kern barrel lens that I had mounted in a Copal 3 by S.K. Grimes and my sense is that I prefer 14" RDA overall, including resolution. I have not been able to find anything specific about this lens from the literature. It appears to be a Dialyte-style process lens but I really don't know.

    Does anyone have any non-speculative information about this or similar Kern process lens? I picked it up about 40 years ago and it was "shelf-ware" until I had it mounted in the Copal 3 a few years ago.

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