Where’s all my zone system experts??

[Tomsmac]

Hey guys. I just want to make sure I have at least a slight grasp on exposing for the zone system. Please chime in….

So, my meter (Using 5° spot) meters at 18% gray. Zone V. If I choose to meter for the highlights, assuming on shooting Velvia, I’m going to meter on the brightest spot and then bump that up 2 stops to bring it to zone 7. Perhaps if it’s Ektar bring it to zone 8. Then I’m going to meter for the darkest shadow and figure our the difference between them…. If it’s zone 3, 5 stops away, I’m good…if not maybe back off on the highlights and bring that back to zone 7 or in this example +2 stops from my initial reading.

If I’ve got a grasp then it’s important to understand the limits and DR of your particular film. Also, Black and white meter and expose off of the shadows???
Next, learning +n or -n developing.

Do I at least have a beginner’s grasp? Thanks for looking!

[Tomsmac]

Hey guys. I just want to make sure I have at least a slight grasp on exposing for the zone system. Please chime in….

So, my meter (Using 5° spot) meters at 18% gray. Zone V. If I choose to meter for the highlights, assuming on shooting Velvia, I’m going to meter on the brightest spot and then bump that up 2 stops to bring it to zone 7. Perhaps if it’s Ektar bring it to zone 8. Then I’m going to meter for the darkest shadow and figure out the difference between them…. If it’s zone 3, 5 stops away, I’m good…if not maybe back off on the highlights and bring that back to zone 7 or in this example +2 stops, instead of 3, from my initial reading.

If I’ve got a grasp then it’s important to understand the limits and DR of your particular film. Also, Black and white, meter and expose off of the shadows, moving them back to zone 3? (2 stops)
Next, learning +n or -n developing.

Do I at least have a beginner’s grasp? Thanks for looking!

[ic-racer]

I don’t know a ‘Zone System’ for color.
If you have access to a range of paper grades for bw printing, negative development can be simplified greatly.

[xkaes]

You've got the idea about it correct, but then you add in personal preferences, estimates, adjustments, films, and paper. That's where it gets messy -- because one person will suggest adjusting this amount in this way, and someone else will say correct in this direction for this factor.
It turns into a plate of spaghetti. Read ten books on the zone system and you get 100 interpretations -- and then 1000 arguments.
My suggestion? Get a copy of Henry's book "Controls in B&W Photography". He advises that you do your OWN tests and figure out how YOU want to do things.

[bmikiten]

You are mixing B/W terminology with color exposure methods. You are also mixing E6 and C41 systems. In general, you are correct that a meter reads at 18% gray. The concept of dynamic range is critical for all those films so you have that right as well. Most E6 is shorter than your example of Ektar which has a very short toe and huge long range so it can be overexposed and rated at lower ASA values and does a better job (IMHO) separating shade values. That all said, the other thing about the Zone System is that it assumes the ability to shorten or lengthen your film development times to contract or expand the response of the film to match the visualization of the scene. I'm sure you've read the phrase "Expose for the shadow and develop for the highlights". With most C-41 big changes in development found in B/W film (+1, +2, -1, -2, etc) will simply produce a very poor negative so that isn't usually much of an option. With E-6 it rarely works at all and I've never been able to really pull or push E6 but that isn't my primary medium. B/W is where the N+/- nomenclature normally is used. So, you have the basic concepts within reach but try not to mix all the film types up as it will just confuse you.

[Ulophot]

As noted by xkaes, you're on the right track, though, as perhaps you are already aware, your equipment, procedures, and results may vary. In an ideal world all meters would be perfectly accurate and linear throughout their ranges; all shutters speeds would be precise, all thermometers likewise, lenses and cameras would have no flare, etc. These and other factors can affect your readings and results considerably, and when we are not aware of the range of possible facotrs when something goes awry, we can end up blaming the wrong "culprit" and making the wrong adjustment.

I would also just like to note something that is often misunderstood or forgotten. Adams used sensitometry to bring greater predictability to his B&W photography, and the Zone System offers us a wonderful tool. However, when you read his books, you find, especially in the introductions, that he goes to considerable lengths to emphasize that it was never intended as a means to translate exact values from nature to film and print. Rather, it is a tool for understanding and, to some extent, quantifying the means by which interpretations of a subject may be altered for expressive purposes, sometimes radically.

I have done relatively little color processing work, so I can't speak to development variations much. My sense is that pin-registered masking techniques may be more widely used to deal with controls in color, and, in some cases, pre-exposure can help with long contrast ranges when shooting tranparency film.

[Tomsmac]

Wow that was great, thank you! I’m getting the impression that knowing your specific film that you are working with at that time Matt is a great deal.

For example only- if I’m using Triax and, again for example, that specific film is five stops then if I neither for the shadows and place that in zone three I should automatically understand that the ceiling to the highlights is zone eight.?

[Alan9940]

Wow that was great, thank you! I’m getting the impression that knowing your specific film that you are working with at that time Matt is a great deal.

For example only- if I’m using Triax and, again for example, that specific film is five stops then if I neither for the shadows and place that in zone three I should automatically understand that the ceiling to the highlights is zone eight.?

Are we talking Kodak Tri-X? That's a B&W film that has a much greater dynamic range than 5 stops. Again, it seems like you're mixing terminology and methods between B&W film and color film. Also, I might add that placing a shadow value on Zone III means nothing, if you haven't tested your film. I'm talking B&W film here. Many times, depending on the scene and my anticipated development technique, I'll place an important shadow value into Zone IV. The "ceiling to the highlights is zone eight" is correct only for [B]textured[B] high values; that is, important highlight areas where you wish to retain some detail. The film itself is capable of going into higher zones and, if you utilize compensating developers or staining formulas you basically don't have to worry about the high values. But, now we're getting into more advanced topics.

I wouldn't get too hung up on expansion/contraction (N+, N-) development with B&W film. If you do your own darkroom printing, much can be done with the MG papers we have at our disposal nowadays. And, if you're scanning and working on the desktop contrast is easily manipulated to taste.

[neil poulsen]

The Zone System (by name) was designed for black and white photography. That said, it can be useful thinking in terms of zones for color.

Back to your query, there's a substantial behind the scenes portion that's not included in your description. For using the Zone System in black and white photography, you really can't use the manufacturers recommended ASA. Moreover, nor will it serve you to use the manufacturer's recommended development times and temperatures. Behind the scenes, the Zone System involves conducting tests to determine the Zone System appropriate ASA for your film of choice, and to determine the different development times that correspond to that ASA.

I use Ilford HP5 film, and my testing invariably indicates that the film speed is about 200 ASA. (Often half the manufacturer's recommended ASA.). My personal mantra for the zone system, is to expose for the shadows, and then develop for the highlights. How to expose for the shadows is relatively easy. For the Zone System, exposing for the highlights is a little more difficult. For the latter, one needs different development times that correspond to differing contrasts in the scene being photographed.

A good book of how to test for film speed, and for how to determine the different development times, is The New Zone System Manual my White, et. al. It's long been out of print. But, used copies aren't hard to find.

It's all a bit involved. But after getting the hang of it, one can get some great excellent black and white results.

[Tomsmac]

Are we talking Kodak Tri-X? That's a B&W film that has a much greater dynamic range than 5 stops. Again, it seems like you're mixing terminology and methods between B&W film and color film. Also, I might add that placing a shadow value on Zone III means nothing, if you haven't tested your film. I'm talking B&W film here. Many times, depending on the scene and my anticipated development technique, I'll place an important shadow value into Zone IV. The "ceiling to the highlights is zone eight" is correct only for [B]textured[B] high values; that is, important highlight areas where you wish to retain some detail. The film itself is capable of going into higher zones and, if you utilize compensating developers or staining formulas you basically don't have to worry about the high values. But, now we're getting into more advanced topics.

I wouldn't get too hung up on expansion/contraction (N+, N-) development with B&W film. If you do your own darkroom printing, much can be done with the MG papers we have at our disposal nowadays. And, if you're scanning and working on the desktop contrast is easily manipulated to taste.

Thank you Alan. I’m not at all hung up on a specific film, thus titled “For example only” I’m trying to gauge weather I have just a basic understanding, or the foundation of the zone system.
Thanks again,