Ebony RW810 or Arca Swiss F Series

[Craig Tuffin]

I have the opportunity to get either of these cameras and I've been debating that choice for a while. The Ebony second-hand has been offered to me at about the same price as a new Arca Swiss.

I realise they are very different cameras and I have to admit that I haven't used either. I do need stability for large lenses so anyone that owns the Ebony please feel free to chime in your opinion of the stability at full (or close to) extension. I can see that the Arca has a larger lens board which is nice and it seems rock solid being a monorail. Both offer asymmetrical front tilts. The Ebony is a beautiful camera (I've owned the RW45 in the past) so that contributes to its charm. At the end of the day whichever camera I get will be worked frequently so as pretty as they are, I need them to do a job.

I've used 8x10 in Chamonix, Deardorff, Toyo and Sinar in the past and know what they have to offer (especially their cheaper price). I really just need some first hand information on these two.

Thanks!

[r.e.]

What do you mean by "the same price as a new Arca-Swiss"? For the Arca, it would be helpful to know basic specs: rail length, bellows length and whether you're talking about a 171 or 141 camera.

You might find it helpful to watch this 2017 Ben Horne video about his Arca-Swiss 8x10:

[Craig Tuffin]

Yes I've seen the video and it's this camera (the F Series) that I'm measuring against the Ebony (I had already mentioned that it's the F series in the title of the thread). But thank you for including it as it does have a good explanation of all the advantages that particular camera can provide.

On the other hand, an Aussie sold his Arca F 8x10 to buy and Ebony 8x10 where Ben Horne did the reverse.

I also mentioned the lens board on the Arca is larger than the one on the Ebony with the Arca at 171mm and the Ebony using standard Sinar boards which are 141mm.

Any first-hand experience with either would be wonderful. I keep bouncing from one to the other.

Thanks

[r.e.]

If you've already seen Ben Horne's exhaustive video about his Arca-Swiss 8x10, it would make sense to ask whatever specific questions you have. What is it you want to know?

Sorry if you think that I'm a bit thick. There were reasons for my questions. I didn't make them up for the fun of it. Arca-Swiss has made large format cameras that it calls F-Line ever since Philippe Vogt purchased the company from the Oschwald brothers in 1984, 38 years ago. It is a completely modular system and there are many variations. Your camera is very similar to Ben Horne's, but it is not identical. His camera was made about four years ago. If the camera that you're considering has a 171mm² front lens board, it was probably made before 2005.

There are some good threads about Arca-Swiss cameras on this forum, and the company's catalogue, showing all of the modules, is on the internet. If you read some of the threads, and check out that catalogue, you'll know why I asked some questions. For example, there are various options when it comes to rail and bellows length.

Good luck with your decision. By the way, this is my 171 Arca-Swiss 8x10, with a 150mm Schneider-Kreuznach Super-Symmar XL wide angle lens on a 30cm rail:




This is the same camera, configured for 4x5 and with a bag bellows and a 75mm Rodenstock Grandagon-N. Like I said, it's a modular system:

[Craig Tuffin]

I apologize if I’ve insulted you, I certainly didn’t mean to. I appreciate the time you’ve taken to reply. You’ve actually answered a couple of my questions as I’ve thought the more modern F line had the other lens board. Absolutely my mistake.
I haven’t actually seen the camera and was ignorant to the many variations of the F series over the years. I’ll do more research as you suggest but I was considering buying the latest release new directly from B&H. It would end up costing the same as the mint Ebony RW810 with an extra custom 9x11 back and 4 film holders in each of the formats.

[mhayashi]

Hello Craig.
I recommend you to buy a used 171mm F line classic 8x10.
I assume you want to use old brass lenses with the new camera to buy and to do wetplate in the field??
I don’t recommend the current 141mm system if you want to use large fast brass lenses which have 100mm or larger diameters of lens elements.

But 171mm system is discontinued so if you can’t find a 171mm f classic then 141mm f classic is the next buy imo.

Neither dynamic nor micrometric orbix hold heavy brass lenses upright, say heavier than 1.5kg.
F line classic has the rear rise but metric models don’t.
I think the rear rise is convenient for 8x10 portrait.
Another model which has the same rise is 8x10 misura but the set comes with the short optical bench meaning less bellows extension and no tilt/swing/shift? on the rear and it has dynamic orbix.
The misura is great for compactness and rear frame rigidity to assure both frames parallel to each other. It’s a compromise model and it is offered only with 141mm front frame.
Other rear frames with classic or metric function carriers have weaknesses in this respect, which are wobbly and you have to be careful with the bellows extension is well enough with bellows draw when using long focal length lenses.

If you use the camera with modern lenses mostly then the current 141mm f line metric model with micrometric orbix is nice and you can buy the f classic front frame later as you need for heavy brass lenses.

I don’t have any experience with Ebony 8x10 cameras.

[Mark Darragh]

G’day Craig,
My first suggestion regarding Arca-Swiss cameras would be to get in touch with Rod Klukas at Arca-Swiss.

I’ve used an 8x10 Arca in various configurations over the years using a 171 front standard. While the company continued to offer 171 components for sometime after they switched to the 141 standards, it would be wise to check whether any 171 components are available from Arca-Swiss. Older Arca-Swiss gear seems to have become quite sought after in recent times and correspondingly the asking price for secondhand gear has risen while availability has decreased.

I can’t comment on the relative merits of the 141 vs 171 standard in terms of rigidity but if I was personally looking at a replacement I’d be looking for a camera with the current 141mm standard.

All the best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Craig Tuffin]

G'Day Mark!

Thanks to you and mhayashi for all of that great information on the Arca system. Although the majority of work I'll do with this camera is with film, I would still like the opportunity to use some of my large fast lenses and therefore need the stability in the front standard.

I can get by with the Sinar sized board on the 8x10 because I fabricate step up flanges (similar to a top hat design) for some of my large diameter lenses. Anything where the barrel of the lens comes close to 140mm, I simply shoot 8x10 plates on my Chamonix 14x14 camera (it takes an 8" lens board).

I guess I just need to know how stable the Ebony is at full extension now if anyone has some experience.

[neil poulsen]

I've used Arca Swiss for years and years and had an Oschwald era (older style) 8x10 that I thought was excellent. It was also very stable. Front and back, it was designed for 8x10.

But, I would definitely recommend against the currently sold 8x10 in any form. (Metric or otherwise.) Arca has tried to adopt a 4x5 front format frame and front and back 4x5 function carriers to 8x10. I currently have the two metric function carriers, and I've had and used many of Classic F standards. They're fine for either 6x9 or for 4x5. (Maybe 5x7?) But in my opinion, they're not up to supporting 8x10, and that's especially true for the Metric function carriers.

As for the 4x5 front format frame, take a look at that video above and you will see that you can only get about an inch and a half of rise. Most of the rise goes into bringing the front format frame up high enough to be on axis with the rear 8x10 format frame. Once you reach whatever limited rise of which the front standard is capable, you have to simulate additional rise by using front and back forward tilt. It's a PITA.

Arca sells an accessory that raises the format frame by about 2.5 inches. If it's possible to leave it installed all the time, it might (?) work. (I have one, and it's kind of smallish. For 8x10, I would feel more comfortable having two of them installed side by side.) But if one or two has to be inserted every time, it's a PITA. And even then, one is still left with the designed for 4x5 function carriers.

I'm not familiar with Ebony 8x10 cameras. So, I can't say whether they're up to the task. But if not, I would look further than currently sold Arca Swiss for something that is.

[Torontoamateur]

I use the Arca Swiss F Line with 171 . It is light and portable . Very stable I have Sinar F and P2 and Wisner and have had Cambo, B&J and Deardorf. ALL in 8x10 My go to camera is the Arca Swiss. Hands down.