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Thread: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

  1. #21

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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    The fact that I received a request to review the V850 from Epson is interesting that they're interested in my comments. Something's up.
    I hope you’re right but I’m not holding my breath based on past performance…

  2. #22
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi7475 View Post
    I hope you’re right but I’m not holding my breath based on past performance…
    The survey asked a lot of questions as to use and issues I might have had. Epson hired a private firm that does surveys for Epson, Sony, and a lot of other tech manufacturers. Epson would not be spending money for nothing. Let's hope this portends a more modern unit. After all, Epson is not oblivious to the fact that film has expanded exponentially in the last couple of years. Just look at how prices for old film cameras have gone up. They would want to get in on the latest interest. Don't forget there can be competitors working on this as well. If they don't do something, a new product could obsolete their entire lines. They have to be able to show they have new stuff. No one wants to buy a 2004 Chevy.

  3. #23

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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    The survey asked a lot of questions as to use and issues I might have had. Epson hired a private firm that does surveys for Epson, Sony, and a lot of other tech manufacturers. Epson would not be spending money for nothing. Let's hope this portends a more modern unit. After all, Epson is not oblivious to the fact that film has expanded exponentially in the last couple of years. Just look at how prices for old film cameras have gone up. They would want to get in on the latest interest. Don't forget there can be competitors working on this as well. If they don't do something, a new product could obsolete their entire lines. They have to be able to show they have new stuff. No one wants to buy a 2004 Chevy.
    Sure let’s be optimistic. However sometimes surveys can just be ways to make a customer base feel good without any intention to follow up (a placebo effect that makes them look good), particularly when making it better is not going to necessarily drive more sales, because, let’s admit, who is Epson’s competitor nowadays to the higher end of the V series? If competition drives innovation then…. well, no need to innovate here… We’ve been driving this old Chevy for a long time now. Like I said the same model has effectively been around for 15 years.

    I don’t want to sound too jaded or negative , but like I said I’m not holding my breath. YMMV.

  4. #24
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi7475 View Post
    Sure let’s be optimistic. However sometimes surveys can just be ways to make a customer base feel good without any intention to follow up (a placebo effect that makes them look good), particularly when making it better is not going to necessarily drive more sales, because, let’s admit, who is Epson’s competitor nowadays to the higher end of the V series? If competition drives innovation then…. well, no need to innovate here… We’ve been driving this old Chevy for a long time now. Like I said the same model has effectively been around for 15 years.

    I don’t want to sound too jaded or negative , but like I said I’m not holding my breath. YMMV.
    Maybe I'm being overly optimistic. But 15 years ago film died. SO they stopped upgrading. So now that's it's been brought back to life, they may be seeing advantages to upgrading. They could charge $1500 or 2000.

    How about this one? They'll include a 120mg sensor (or some sensor that''s affordable) and start taking pictures rather than flatbed scanning. Do you think that might interest a lot of people to replace their old unit? They could add an automatic feeder as an option.

  5. #25

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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    How long would it take to scan and 4x5 at 6000? WOuld it be worth the time spent?
    It would be defined by how fast you could get data and heat out of the sensor. Much more achievable now than 20 years ago - seconds, not minutes. From 4x5, 1500ppi at high MTF may be plenty for most - and anything beyond 3000ppi will start to test the precision (or otherwise) of your camera/ lens/ film holders.

    If they could deliver a really good 1500ppi across the bed and 3000ppi down a narrower 3-4" strip (thus only two lenses needed) with everything designed for high precision, low flare, halation etc & with MTF rather than resolution numbers the highest priority, that would make it a potentially good machine.

  6. #26
    Unwitting Thread Killer Ari's Avatar
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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    The perfect universal scanner already exists. It is made by Creo. Any of the Eversmart or IQ Smart scanners will do everything you need.
    They cost around $4000, used, and will scan anything up to 12x18".
    It doesn't sound like Epson will go drastically further than what they currently produce.
    If they did, it would just be an inferior version of the Creo.

  7. #27
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ari View Post
    The perfect universal scanner already exists. It is made by Creo. Any of the Eversmart or IQ Smart scanners will do everything you need.
    They cost around $4000, used, and will scan anything up to 12x18".
    It doesn't sound like Epson will go drastically further than what they currently produce.
    If they did, it would just be an inferior version of the Creo.
    But the Creo is $4000. If Epson made something better than the V850 approaching the Creo, and charged let;s say $1500, it could get a lot of converts. How old is Creo technology?

  8. #28

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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    The Creo or Cezanne are antique and we dont want to work like veterans. SCSI on old computers with old Software, and the stitching technic is the only solution to get high resolution on old 8000 pixel scan lines and 14 bit converters. If you scan high resolution 8x10 or larger with them, you feel to get older while scanning. And no ICE dust reduction.

    If Epson thinks about upgrading the V-line, will they stay to their basic technic (2x3x20000pixel scanlines (NEC built), optic and mechanical stepping motor, 16bit converter, ICE), just to improve them in detail, or is their a real chance to build with new generation technic a new device?

    But is their any new generation technic? The NEC scan-array 15 years ago was and is today the best device, or anybody here knows anything better?
    But its also fact the the same basic technic (scan-array) is in the Epson 12000xl Scanner and this Scanner can output a net resolution of 2400 dpi on the double scan area (30x40cm), or the x1,5 linear factor (groundglass) of the optic compared to the V-series with the same net output of max 2400 dpi. Why the V cannot transfer this 1,5 factor to a net resolution of 3200 (or 4800 calculated from filmholder lenth of 15 cm). Is there room for quality upgrade within the basic technic, it seems so ....
    regards
    Rainer

  9. #29
    bob carnie's Avatar
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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawitz View Post
    The Creo or Cezanne are antique and we dont want to work like veterans. SCSI on old computers with old Software, and the stitching technic is the only solution to get high resolution on old 8000 pixel scan lines and 14 bit converters. If you scan high resolution 8x10 or larger with them, you feel to get older while scanning. And no ICE dust reduction.

    If Epson thinks about upgrading the V-line, will they stay to their basic technic (2x3x20000pixel scanlines (NEC built), optic and mechanical stepping motor, 16bit converter, ICE), just to improve them in detail, or is their a real chance to build with new generation technic a new device?

    But is their any new generation technic? The NEC scan-array 15 years ago was and is today the best device, or anybody here knows anything better?
    But its also fact the the same basic technic (scan-array) is in the Epson 12000xl Scanner and this Scanner can output a net resolution of 2400 dpi on the double scan area (30x40cm), or the x1,5 linear factor (groundglass) of the optic compared to the V-series with the same net output of max 2400 dpi. Why the V cannot transfer this 1,5 factor to a net resolution of 3200 (or 4800 calculated from filmholder lenth of 15 cm). Is there room for quality upgrade within the basic technic, it seems so ....
    regards
    Rainer
    I have tested Phase One system against my Creo Eversmart Supreme- Paul Bunyan is still relevant just a bit slower.

  10. #30

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    Re: Features of a universal Filmscanner and why the Epson 700/800 has or has not.

    Too often processed 4x5 film is not flat but slightly curved for one reason or another. Even with adjusting height, I have had inconsistent results with my Epson. Not sure how Epson solves that without a completely different design, which is why I still get drum scans of my better work. Prints from Epson scans can be guite good for lower sized prints as long as the scan is optimized. Dmax is another matter and I still default to drum scans at times. Taylor Photo in Princeton NJ still produces drum scans.

    On Landscape UK has produced several comparisons of drum scans of 4x5 film vs digital. As Bob says, the 150MP PO is still not approaching 8x10 quality (subject to choice of film of course), but 4x5 quality has been eclipsed.

    On the other hand, the color differentiation is very different from both, so choose your weapon carefully. If you prefer greater color differentiation, clearly film is superior. Not sure this would matter to B+W afficionados.

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