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Thread: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

  1. #81

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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    You can shoot color chromes and then switch them to BW when editing. Get the best of both worlds.

    Provia 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alankl...in/dateposted/
    BW from Ektachrome 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alankl...in/dateposted/
    That what I do, I have the 6 shooter with BW and then I might have 2 hlders with a different ISO film in BW and then 2 loaded with E100 or Provia. Never know when color will be needed.

  2. #82

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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Contrast/dynamic range of panchromatic B&W film can be made MUCH greater (or compressed) than any color transparency film or not the same as removing the color via software from a color transparency film. The B&W image results from these two methods will NOT produce the same B&W image product.

    Easy to software remove "the" color, do not expect near equal results from this practice.


    Not that ok with using a digital camera in monochrome mode or software color removal as the resulting images (~Meh~) are flat different from using high quality B&W film exposed, processed as needed.
    Bernice

  3. #83

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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    You can shoot color chromes and then switch them to BW when editing. Get the best of both worlds.

    Provia 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alankl...in/dateposted/
    BW from Ektachrome 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alankl...in/dateposted/
    As Bernice points out there is the limited dynamic range of chromes that will limit you, but the bigger thing to me is I really am a B&W photographer. I don't want to give up shooting, developing, or printing B&W. Shooting color is more of a diversion for a colorblind photographer who likes to see colors, but has no idea what he's looking at. I couldn't come close to printing C41 on RA4 and not have it look like some alien universe.

  4. #84
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Not all chromes make good black white images by any means, at least by typical LF printing standards. Casual web examples allow for almost any misdemeanor imaginable. The ideal respective contrast ranges are quite a bit different. I printed quite a few last year which were generated by emulsion to emulsion contact between old chrome 8x10 originals and 8x10 black and white film internegs using my punch and register frames (mostly onto TMax100, though I've used FP4 in the past), or else by enlarging 4x5 chromes onto 8x10 TMax black and white film using a special pin-registered vacuum holder on the easel. Contrast filtration is a somewhat different game than in working directly with natural light. It's a fair amount of fussy dust-free work and expense, but in my opinion, renders richer tonality than doing it via scanning, though that is fairly common to do these days.

    So frankly, I wouldn't call any chrome method of obtaining black and white images the best of EITHER world. I did it because I simply didn't shoot anything black and white my first ten years of LF photography, and many of those shots were in remote places I'll never get to again, and that don't even look the same anymore, largely due to loss of glaciers. Anyway, by being VERY selective about which specific chromes I chose, I did get some exceptional prints, which have a distinct look conspicuously different from what I would have gotten if I had taken the same shot directly using black and white film in the first place. A fun project, regardless.

  5. #85

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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Re-post from previous incorrect discussion.

    Another often less considered with sheet film, film holders and their condition. Often "penny wise_pound foolish" to economize on film holders as iffy ones can ruin far more than just one of your days. They are often the source of image problems from fuzzy areas of the image to remarkable abstract light images on film. So..

    ~Vacuum to get ALL dust/dirt out of the film holders to be used including the dark slide area which is often a dirt and dust magnet that lets go at the most unexpected moments.

    ~If the flap tape goes limp and no longer able to stay put, replace it with black book binder tape.

    ~Make sure the dark slides are in good shape and clean. If there is a small crack in the dark slide, or lose dark slide handles (on older style film holders) it can produce frustrating problems.

    ~Make sure the film area inside the film holder is smooth and not abrasive. This is a common source of scratched film that happens during film loading and unloading.

    ~Test all holders for light leaks. Do not use light leaky film holders or fix and verify
    No light leaks before using the film holder.

    ~Store the film holders in a open ended plastic baggie. This is to prevent dust and dirt from getting mixed up with the film holder. Film holders in a sealed baggie is asking for problems like condensation.

    ~Don't beat up the film holders by slamming them into the camera, this can cause signifiant shifts in camera settings, excessive wear on the film holder and more. One of the thoughtful features of the Sinar 5x7 (specially mid production Norma and later) there is a ground glass lifter that raises the entire ground glass off the film holder seating area allowing great ease with film holder ingress-egress with the camera. After a whole lotta film in then out of the Sinar, there is nil wear on all the 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders. Think Arca Swiss also had a similar to identical feature.

    ~Adhesive film holders can go a significant ways to aid in film flatness, This becomes REALLY significant as the sheet film sizes goes up mixed with camera position. Film flatness is one of the image quality challenges of sheet film in general.


    Bernice

  6. #86
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Not all chromes make good black white images by any means, at least by typical LF printing standards. Casual web examples allow for almost any misdemeanor imaginable. The ideal respective contrast ranges are quite a bit different. I printed quite a few last year which were generated by emulsion to emulsion contact between old chrome 8x10 originals and 8x10 black and white film internegs using my punch and register frames (mostly onto TMax100, though I've used FP4 in the past), or else by enlarging 4x5 chromes onto 8x10 TMax black and white film using a special pin-registered vacuum holder on the easel. Contrast filtration is a somewhat different game than in working directly with natural light. It's a fair amount of fussy dust-free work and expense, but in my opinion, renders richer tonality than doing it via scanning, though that is fairly common to do these days.

    So frankly, I wouldn't call any chrome method of obtaining black and white images the best of EITHER world. I did it because I simply didn't shoot anything black and white my first ten years of LF photography, and many of those shots were in remote places I'll never get to again, and that don't even look the same anymore, largely due to loss of glaciers. Anyway, by being VERY selective about which specific chromes I chose, I did get some exceptional prints, which have a distinct look conspicuously different from what I would have gotten if I had taken the same shot directly using black and white film in the first place. A fun project, regardless.
    I don't print for now. I use color film and do transfer to BW. I get the point about range, stops, curves, etc. Chrome especially don't have the same range as negative BW. However, you can adjust each color range in post editing to create a lot of lighting range for each color set in Lightroom and other apps. That's got to count for something.

  7. #87
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Excellent, Bernice. I would add that I use/have used pink anti-static (ziplock and open-end) bags for most my holders. The open-end bags were bubble-bags, also. Static build-up is usually not a problem in the damp air of the coast, but I do travel to drier cooler climes, and the bags do not seem to attract dust during use.
    I had a nice ice chest that the 8x10 holders fit perfectly into for traveling...extra dust protection and mellowed out the temperature changes (opened at night in the desert).

    Another topic would be changing film and storing exposed film during long trips. I try to simplify this by taking enough holders not to need re-loading. The other extreme was a 6-month trip with the 4x5 on a bicycle, etc. My exposed film was bouncing/shifting around in a film box for months on the bike on rough roads in wet weather -- I had never heard of high-humidity static discharges before. Lost a few negatives to it. Always challenges!
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

  8. #88

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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Re-post from previous incorrect discussion.

    Another often less considered with sheet film, film holders and their condition. Often "penny wise_pound foolish" to economize on film holders as iffy ones can ruin far more than just one of your days. They are often the source of image problems from fuzzy areas of the image to remarkable abstract light images on film. So..

    ~Vacuum to get ALL dust/dirt out of the film holders to be used including the dark slide area which is often a dirt and dust magnet that lets go at the most unexpected moments.

    ~If the flap tape goes limp and no longer able to stay put, replace it with black book binder tape.

    ~Make sure the dark slides are in good shape and clean. If there is a small crack in the dark slide, or lose dark slide handles (on older style film holders) it can produce frustrating problems.

    ~Make sure the film area inside the film holder is smooth and not abrasive. This is a common source of scratched film that happens during film loading and unloading.

    ~Test all holders for light leaks. Do not use light leaky film holders or fix and verify
    No light leaks before using the film holder.

    ~Store the film holders in a open ended plastic baggie. This is to prevent dust and dirt from getting mixed up with the film holder. Film holders in a sealed baggie is asking for problems like condensation.

    ~Don't beat up the film holders by slamming them into the camera, this can cause signifiant shifts in camera settings, excessive wear on the film holder and more. One of the thoughtful features of the Sinar 5x7 (specially mid production Norma and later) there is a ground glass lifter that raises the entire ground glass off the film holder seating area allowing great ease with film holder ingress-egress with the camera. After a whole lotta film in then out of the Sinar, there is nil wear on all the 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders. Think Arca Swiss also had a similar to identical feature.

    ~Adhesive film holders can go a significant ways to aid in film flatness, This becomes REALLY significant as the sheet film sizes goes up mixed with camera position. Film flatness is one of the image quality challenges of sheet film in general.


    Bernice
    Just 2 questions about this:
    - do you store the film holders with the darkslides in? I sometimes think it might be better for the velvet that the dark slide is out. But I never seen/read this so does it matter?
    - those adhesive film holder, any info about that? Is that commercial or diy? If diy then what adhesive is used?
    Expert in non-working solutions.

  9. #89

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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc View Post
    Just 2 questions about this:
    - do you store the film holders with the darkslides in? I sometimes think it might be better for the velvet that the dark slide is out. But I never seen/read this so does it matter? ...
    There was a thread about this here (or over on Photrio) relatively recently. The consensus was to store holders with the dark slides in. This makes a lot of sense considering that a) people don't seem to have problems with light leaks when storing holders this way and b) different brand and even different holder runs in the same brand have dark slides of slightly different sizes. They don't get mixed up easily when stored in their respective holders.

    FWIW, I store all my holders with the slides in and have never had a light-leak problem I could trace to the storage.

    Best,

    Doremus

  10. #90
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    There was a thread about this here (or over on Photrio) relatively recently. The consensus was to store holders with the dark slides in. This makes a lot of sense considering that a) people don't seem to have problems with light leaks when storing holders this way and b) different brand and even different holder runs in the same brand have dark slides of slightly different sizes. They don't get mixed up easily when stored in their respective holders.

    FWIW, I store all my holders with the slides in and have never had a light-leak problem I could trace to the storage.

    Best,

    Doremus
    Dark slides keep the flaps from flapping and the insides cleaner from dust.

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