Voigtlander B serial transition to Portrait Objectiv serial engraving & Nomenclature

[mhayashi]

I'm trying to figure out Voigtlander B(quick worker) serial transition to Portrait Objectiv series in terms of lens design, engraving & Nomenclature.
Here is the list of the serial numbers and engravings I collected on the internet and D'Agostini's book.



Any thoughts on this topic are welcome!!
Very interesting topic to me, but anybody??

Here are some of my questions I haven't got answers for.
1. Does anyone know who actually designed B series, by Hans Zincke Sommer(1837-1922)?
2. B means there were A at the time but there seemed no A series at the time B series introduced?? I understood when Voigtlander used alphabetical suffix to start new series in old days and then changed the name to permanent names and drop the alphabet like this topic I suppose.
3. When did Voigtlander start to use new glasses in Jena for the B series? I am thinking the experimental new glasses were used from the beginning around 1878?, meaning the introduction of B series well before 1886...?
4. When did Voigtlander change the lens design of B series if any, maybe around 1889 after additional new glasses were available?
when the engraving was changed to Portrait Objectiv I, No XB?

[Tim Deming]

If you haven't already, you should get a copy of Claus Prochnow's book: Voigtländer Report 3: Platten- und Rollfilmkameras

This 3rd volume has a lot of information on early Voigtlander lenses. It is only available in German, as far as I know, but one can always translate

[mhayashi]

Thanks Tim for your info.
I’ve just ordered the used book from Amazon!

[Steven Tribe]

Now I have a bad conscience!

I started to write a contribution some days ago, but realized that it would take the best part of an hour to formulate what I wanted to say!
I started with mentioning the Prochinow book which has a quite different approach to Voigtlander’s Petzval evolution than the sources you mentioned. Thanks to the auto save system I can re-create the first sentences!

“I will try and contribute, as best I can!
I have the advantage of having the Claus Prochinow “Voigtlander Report 3” book.
Eder suggested (as mentioned by Prochinow) that Emil Busch in 1858 was the first to…….”

Now you have ordered Prochinow’s book. Most of the book is about cameras - just 30 pages devoted to lenses. I don’t think you will find a direct answer to your A/B question, though. I certainly can’t!

[mhayashi]

Thanks Steven for your comment!
Now I want to know what you wanted to say by “the best part of an hour to formulate what I wanted to say!”.

[mhayashi]

I made some rough drafts of sample lists and flowcharts I looked up by now in pdf for further researches for anyone.

VoigtlanderPetzvalSamplesEngravings20240322.pdf
VoigtlanderPetzvalTransitionSummary20240220.pdf
VoigtlanderPetzvalFlowchart20240217.pdf
VoigtlanderPetzvalCatalogueTransitions20240107.pdf

If anyone wants the original excel file, let me know by email.
Maybe other members can help update the file for sampling Voigtlander petzval lenses with numbers engraved on the barrels.

My current self-reply to the original questoins...

1. Does anyone know who actually designed B series, Hans Zincke Sommer(1837-1922)?
Maybe yes. (I emailed to Ivan Rose about this topic. I may be allowed to post his reply later with his credit if he allows.)
The 1870 Ia f2.3 series design (the rear crown and flint space is minimal and flint curvatures are pronounced) which was introduced later in 1900 resembles the slower yet fast f3.16 7B layout in my hands especially there is no spacer ring between the elements in the rear group that makes the rear crown and flint closer togother and the flint has the pronounced curvatures.

See p40-41 in Kingslake's "A history of photographic lenses".
https://archive.org/details/historyo...e/2up?q=sommer

P274-277 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr, 1899
https://www.google.co.jp/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

P223 Ausführliches Handbuch der Photographie Volume 1 by Josef Maria Eder, 1884
https://www.google.co.jp/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

In recent times (1881) Voigtländer also has these construction modified again. The design of the lenses is analogous to the previous one, but the radii of curvature of the lenses, especially the inner radii, are considerably more curved; also the Lenses of the rear lens are analogous to the previous new rear lens, only the inner radii are slightly different, so that the crown glass lens is no longer cemented to the flint glass lens, but separate. More precise dates have not been announced. The last-mentioned construction achieves extraordinary things in terms of light power and depth and must be highly recommended for taking large portraits (oblong format, promenade format); the instrument is much brighter than similar portrait instruments of old construction.
It has a shorter focal length and is therefore particularly suitable for short studios of value.

NOTE: The above year 1881 is suspicious, contradictory against 7B samples existed dating from 1878.

A photographer's testimonial:
in p71 Photographic Times and American Photographer Volume 12, 1882
https://www.google.co.jp/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

TESTIMONIALS.
We are constantly receiving letters from all parts of the country, unsolicited, acknowledging the many excellencies of our lenses.
Regarding the 7 B Voigtlander, Mr. P. R. Young, of Oneonta, N. Y. , writes us :
" *** It could not be bought to- day for two hundred dollars ! Never saw any tube that could give that dreamy something so very pleasant to see, but hard to attain; presume it is called 'plasticity.' ”

Mr. P. R. Young, of Oneonta, N. Y. was the established photographer at that time.
Perry R. YOUNG, born Oct 1849, married 21 years, born NY, parents
born NY, a Photographer, died Jan 31, 1916.

Young Studio at McCrumb Block Oneonta,NY.
Other branches; Sidney, Worcester and Cobleskill

https://cdm16694.contentdm.oclc.org/...on/ZBM/id/139/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M._Milne
Picture Citation:Special Collections, Milne Library, SUNY Oneonta
photograph; b&w; 9.8 x 6.8 in. (24.8 x 17.2 cm.)
This picture was taken in between 1889 and 1898,(maybe by the original 7B he testified??)
while he was elected to become the first principal of the Oneonta Normal School(the current SUNY,Oneonta).
He stayed for nine years before he was forced to resign in 1898 due to a controversy with the board.


2. B means there was A at the time but there seemed no A series at the time B series introduced?? I understood when Voigtlander used alphabetical suffix to start new series in old days and then changed the name to permanent names and drop the alphabet like this topic I suppose.

There were A series(3A, 7A, 8A, 9A) as the slowest petzvals described in McCollin 1876 and in other older catalogues as the third series(partly only 5A).
So it would be safe to say the fastest series follow as B later if that is the origin of the naming....

3. When did Voigtlander start to use new glasses in Jena for the B series? I am thinking the experimental new glasses were used from the beginning around 1878?, meaning the introduction of B series well before 1886...?

By 1886 for Portrait Objectives and Euryscopes from 1906 Voigtlander catalogue description about the history.
https://antiquecameras.net/images/Voigt1906abcd.pdf

By 1898 at the latest based on the description (Uses Jena Glass) of British Journal Photographic Almanac 1898.
https://archive.org/details/1898brit...?q=voigtlander

4. When did Voigtlander change the lens design of B series if any, maybe around 1889 after additional new glasses were available?
when the engraving was changed to Portrait Objectiv I, No XB?

The same question as above as one answer.

When the optical redesigns were made by Jena glass in 1886.
Probably as early as 1885 according to the descriptions below, at the same time as Portrait Objectiv I, No XB engraving started.
I need more actual lens samples around 1885.

For the engraving change, the sampling shows
from XB
to Portrait-Objectiv I, No XB
change occured circa between 1884 and 1889.

I need at least two samples to confirm in 1885 and 1886 each, whether that change occurred at the same time with the introduciont of Jena glass in 1886.

P 122 Ausführliches Handbuch der Photographie Volume 1 By Josef Maria Eder, 1893
https://www.google.co.jp/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

Recently, Voigtländer changed this original Petzval'sche
Construction , in that he (according to Dallmeyer's procedure, see below) in the
Rear combination reversed the position of the flint and crown glasses.
The last construction (1885) of Voigtländer's portrait lens with a large
Luminous Intensity” (Quick Worker) has the Ver
ratio of aperture to focal length = 1 : 3 1/6;
the field of view angle is = 50 degrees.

The new design made in 1885?(optical design year?, not production year?) for the portrait objectiv. Not quite sure if it is due to the new Jena glass or it was used from 1885. <-1886 is mentioned in other literatures the year Voigtlander started to use Jena glass, but if I can find a sample with Portrait Objectiv I engraving in 1885, that should prove the Jena glass used from 1885.

P338 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr, 1899

Glassworks for the mass production of optical glass by 0.SCHOTT,E.ABBE,C. and R.Zeiss under the company "Glas technical laboratory SCHOTT & GEN.Jena" in 1886. The construction of the glassworks was already completed in autumn 1884, whereby a considerable subsidy from the Prussian state made it possible to carry out the first very expensive tests on a manufacturing scale had made possible.

The description below about the new Voigtlander portrait objectiv design suggests it is very similar to Dallmeyer's, losing the pronounced curvatures in the rear element in the past B series.

P276-277 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr, 1899
https://www.google.co.jp/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

In 1878 we find the VOIGTLÄNDER'sche institution the introduction of a portrait lens with a cemented rear lens busy, of a type possibly due to the same author is due to .
J. M. EDER tells us meanwhile (1. 126.) that after some years 1885 the manufacture of these lenses in favor of a type was abandoned in which after the process J. H. DALLMEYER's glass sequence in the hind limb was changed.
If one reduces that there (1. 122.) for a focal length of 167 mm
given radius values ​​by dividing by 1.67 on f appr. =100 mm , these numbers can be compared with those of J. H. DALLMEYER compare specified. Now the approximate
f = 100 mm reduced radii according to J. H. DALLMEYER ( 1866 ):

and, very similarly, after FR. VOIGTLANDER (1885):

Unfortunately, not all the data are known here either, specifically the distance is missing.
In order to have a picture of this VOIGTLÄNDER type, it will suffice to visualize DALLMEYER's, Fig. 86.
In the drawing there would hardly be any other difference make noticeable the difference in curvature on surface 4 would not recognize for the so few different arrow heights
bar will be as of that the lens diameter in the first case would be 33.3mm, in the second 31.1mm.

Also for another catalogue evidence,
1893 Buchanan's complete illustrated catalogue: photographic supplies Philadelphia
1898 British Journal Photographic Almanac 1898

https://archive.org/details/gri_3312...?q=voigtlander

As I write in the flowchart in the above pdf, to summarize the 1885 portrait objectiv I,
1885?-1886-1889 First Series, Dallmeyer layout, aka Schnellarbeiter, "quick-worker".
Redesigned with Jena glass.
Dallmeyer's patent US65729A 1867-06-11 expired by 1884.
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...13/US65729.pdf

P276-277 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr,
Friedrich Wilhelm Ritter von Voigtlander (as in FR. Voigtlander) designed these series?

Not quite sure if it is due to the new Jena glass or it was used from 1885.
But there are supporting descriptions as above since the Jena glass was available from 1884.

The design was very similar to Dallmeyer's, losing the strong curvatures of the original "B series" optical design.
The second series are now called First series instead, and changed the nickname from Rapid to Quick, the same as the original first series' nickname.

The Portrait Euryscope II the Second Series. The engraving "Portrait Objectiv I" start
The third series also replaced by Portrait Euryscope III series.Only Quick workers B series were produced by then.
1896-1909 From this year to the end of the productions of Portrait Objectiv I Series, the engraving nomenclature tended to omit descriptions, omitting B in 1893, No. in 1900- 1901, adding the effective focal length in 1902-1905, then finaly dropping the lens number designation in 1905. The production of the first (B) series finally stopped by circa 1910?.


Based on all of these transitions, Voigtlander main petzval(partly euryscop) nomenclature(syntactic) rule of engravings is something like this….
(Portrait-[Objectiv|Euryscop])([I|II|III])(No.)(X([A|B]))(X cm)
meaning….
(Using Jena glass for portrait made in 1885 and after & Dallmeyer layout for [petzval design|RR design])([Catalogue Series lens group number])(No.)(Xth in the given series ([in the A|B designation in the given series, B with Dallmeyer design])(effective focal length X cm)

e.g.
Portrait-Objectiv I, No.7., 40cm
meaning...
Using Jena glass for portrait made in 1885 and after & Dallmeyer layout for petzval design
Series I in catalogue
No.7 in Series I
effective focal length 40cm

7B
meaning....
Without using Jena glass for portrait made before 1885 for petzval design
No.7 with Dallmeyer design (7 in 7B infers 14" EF.)

[mhayashi]

Ivan Rose has allowed me to post his comments. Here these are.

The reply includes his comments about another thread.
https://www.largeformatphotography.i...gs-before-1857

———————-
Hello Masayoshi,
I had a few thoughts re the Voigtlander's -
1857 No.6 I have seen another like this but without the waterhouse slot, Corrado puts the date for actinic correction at 1858, this was partly explained by Petzval not wanting to do further work for Voigt. without a good payment. Andrew Ross seemed to solve the actinic focus problem by 1851, his lens wining an award at the 'Great Exhibition' in London. Another point, the small #125mm lenses do not need this compensation scale, (I have a 125mm of 1850, this is correct for actinic focus), the cone shaped Voigtlander camera lens does not have a scale. The scale is only required for the larger sizes of lens ?.
The compensation scale returns with the Puyo non achromatic lenses from the early 20th cent., I have the correct instruction book for these (in French).
'B' series, not sure of the designer, should be Zinke-Sommer. Corrado found no evidence for the new Jena glass be added to these, it was the same for the Ross and Dallmeyer companies, there was no commercial gain in changing the basic Petzval / Dallmeyer variation of design. The new glass was added to the Euryscop, and for Ross the Symmetrical series, and some of the landscape lenses.
I have one of the very rare Zinke-Sommer 1878 cemented 'Petzval' lenses, 330mm focus, the contrast is increased slightly over the air-spaced design. It is a lens that would be interesting to do more tests with.
Regards Ivan

Cemented Petzval, you have saved an image of my lens on your Flickr 'faves', it is between the 6B & 7B in size with elements of 95mm diameter, the rear is approx. 20mm thick. There are no extra markings on the barrel, I assumed it was a portrait Euryscop for many years until I found the extra information about these. The number is noted in Corrado's book, but just as a Petzval, I think it was part of the Voigt. collection several decades ago.
Any information I have sent you which you think is interesting can be added to the large format site.
Regards Ivan
———————————
He mentions his flickr photo of No.23195, a sample of the Voigtlander petzval lens with the rear elements glued, designed by Hans Sommer in 1878, not a Euryscope! Notice no clue to detect whether it’s the Hans Sommer lens on appearance!!!

[mhayashi]

I have updated my new findings mainly about Portrait objective Ia which I considered an appendix putting aside for my research but Hans Harting descriptions
in p279-p296 Photographische Correspondenz 1900 Nr.476,
https://www.google.co.jp/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0
enlightened the optical design about Hans Zincke Sommer’s original Ia design and the glued rear element modified petzvals, which might implied his 1878 B series design using his dioptrik analytic calculation.
https://www.google.co.jp/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

Quote from p282-p283 Photographische Correspondenz 1900 Nr.476:

In his dioptrics of lens systems, Sommer, as I have mentioned, is completely on Petzval's point of view and develops long series of formulas with admirable patience, which only partially are still not very clear. With these extensive mathematical developments, he stands in contrast to the modern calculating opticians, who, on the basis of certain theorems, mostly obtained inductively, seek to gain insight into the essence of a construction by actually following the rays of light. Among other innovations, which were almost exclusively dropped again,such as B. a photographic objective that is symmetrical to the aperture and consists of four individual lenses, Sommer calculated a modification of the old Viennese Petzval objective, the development of which can be followed step by step in the dioptric. The new modification differs conspicuously from Voigtländer's Series I, for the aperture ratio has now increased from 1:3.2 to 1:2.4; the arrangement of the lenses, on the other hand, has remained the same. The objective therefore consists of two front lenses cemented together and two separate rear lenses, in both cases Crown ahead . The objective was primarily intended for visual purposes, i.e. not usable for photography; Glass types were a heavy zinc silicate crown and a heavier lead silicate flint. The corrections condition is, like that of all published lens types, in which mentioned works of Dr. V. Rohr has been mathematically examinedand shows a not inconsiderable spherical undercorrection for the point of greatest physiological brightness, on the other hand a satisfactory equalization of the astigmatism and the image field flatness for such a large aperture ratio, the latter of course in a figurative sense. What the lens actually did was not known, for it had never actually been carried out; it existed only as a being of numbers Sommer's beech.

————
After Hans Zincke Sommer completed the thesis, Untersuchungen über die Dioptrik der Linsen-Systeme in 1870,
he applied the method to design the following three improved petzval lenses by 1878,

1. the original in 1870, then tweeked by Hans Harting as the late model as Portrait Objectiv Ia (fastest f2.3), in 1900

3. the modified rear elements glued petzval in 1878. German No.5761 in June 25th 1879, and GB No.4756/78, 1879.

Hypothesis 1
2. the B series (f 3.14, Schnellarbeiter) by 1878 later called Portrait Objectiv I with Jena glass modification in 1885,
the B series were designed by the Dioptrik method at the same period as 1 the original in 1870, the late Portrait Objectiv Ia f2.3.
—————

Note: Not to be confused about the two different petzvals:
1878 B series, aka B series, Schnellarbeiter, quick worker, rapid worker, made circa 1878-1885
1885 and after Portrait Objectiv I(with Jena glass), aka, Schnellarbeiter, quick worker, made circa 1885-1910?

eg. Portrait-Objectiv I No.5B is the latter 1885 and after petzval, even though B is denoted, while B is dropped later from the engraving.

I emailed Corrado about all of these findings and thoughts and he would reply me during his summer vacation….

[mhayashi]

I have just received the email from Corrado.
Here is the reply and the part of his 2nd edition draft, that he allowed me to share.

Dear Masayoshi,

I apologize for the delay in writing to you.
I am writing the second edition in Italian of my book on German builders.
I rearranged some pages and translated them for you with google. I send them to you by We transfer.
I came to the conclusion that there are 5 types of Portrait Lens.
However, of the 2nd and 3rd types I have only theoretical information and I have never been able to examine a specimen because perhaps they are rare objectives.
I think that to be able to make a very precise history of the Portrait it would be necessary to examine the lenses of the second and third types.
In those years (1879-1891) the company was more interested in advertising the Euryscop and the Portrait was probably kept only by tradition.
I would be happy if you would tell me what you think about it.
I very much appreciated the accuracy of the diagrams you sent me in July and August. They have been very helpful to me.
If you want to use the material that I have sent you on the blogs you can do it without problems.
A friendly greeting.
Corrado
———————
I cannot share his pdf due to the pdf upload limit by the LFPF system.
The file size is about 70MB.
But here is the link for download but it’s limited by September 13th.
Dear moderator, if you can upload the pdf for other members, I'd be appreciated.

Download link

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/68f...6214602/cf7adf
1 item
Pages traslated from italian 2 th Edizion 2022 keynote copia.pdf
66.7 MB

[mhayashi]

Here is new info.
Andreas Mros in Germany, a FB friend of mine kindly checked his Voigtlander No.7 petzval with 7 on the barrel.
The lens serial number is No.24257 made in 1878 shows the Dallmeyer design, rear elements towards subject: Concave-convex, concave-convex.
The the rear lens case is redesigned to each case for each rear element.
The spacer ring is substituted to the unthreaded space and the internal rear element distance is further adjusted by shim rings.
No internal rear strong curvatures of rear elements unlike the B series at the same period betwenn 1878 and 1885.

Total height including hood is 305mm.
Front lens opening diameter 103mm
Rear lens opening diameter 105mm
measured focal length from whs slot to GG on far objects with extrapolation suggests 450mm.
This fact suggests that the Series on the number on the barrel inherit the focal length sets of the original petzval design,
yet the optical design changed from the original petzval layout to the Dallmeyer one.

I have not confirmed during this period from 1878 to 1886(1885) whether larger No.8 and No.9 produced had the numbers on the barrel likewise, or whether they had the Dallmeyer design or not. The sampling check would confirm this question in future.

I have updated the flowchart and sample list accordingly.
One of the remaining questions has now solved.

https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1645764






Acknowledgement: all of these pictures are from Andreas Mros.