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Thread: Music as analogy for LF photography

  1. #81

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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    Another interesting correlation is the "disco" bass line is also the same tempo as a slightly elevated heartbeat, and the pace of fast walking in a big city...

    Steve K

  2. #82

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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    Quote Originally Posted by Heroique View Post
    Doremusí post is magnificent and Iím sure he knows how potentially explosive it is.
    He can count me among his generals.
    Sadly, our hieratic armies will be no match for the demotic gangs on the way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R View Post
    Wow. I don't think much of this holds up at all under scrutiny, nor has it been my experience in a life of music and art. Seems extremely elitist, not to mention likely leading to little more than a fairly vacuous technical appreciation rather than anything genuine.
    Heroique,
    Let's not bet bellicose here But thanks for the compliement (but not for the dismal prophecy...).

    Michael,
    I knew I was risking sounding elitist, but really, I don't think it's all that far-fetched to aver that education and training are essential to excellence in just about any endeavor. Every good musician I know didn't get where they are by instinct, innate ability or pure talent; they study and they practice their asses off. Visual arts, on the other hand, seems to currently have a less-practiced bunch of practitioners, but I truly believe that the art that really lasts and has deep cultural meaning is that which has been informed by knowledge and created with consummate craft. (Mind you, that does not exclude modern and conceptual art in the least).

    No one would even entertain the idea that one could become a physicist, mathematician, or even a competent plumber or house painter without proper training and mastery of their craft. Why on earth should one then surmise that becoming an excellent photographer, painter, sculptor, etc. requires only a desire to express and whatever native skills we are born with?

    Knowing, practicing and refining your craft and knowing the history of the medium you work in are just the beginning of becoming an artist. Knowing attendant disciplines that bear on your field as well as having a good cultural education in the arts and sciences enrich and cross-pollinate the expression of said artistic endeavor. Then all you need is to have something to add to the discussion.

    How many times have I heard a jazz pianist or saxophonist quote Mahler or Chopin in their improvisations? How many direct references are there in music and the visual arts to history, mythology, philosophy, etc. The artists involved knew their stuff; they studied and thought. Only after all that work liberates and informs their expression does it really approach excellence. The result is a richer and more intense expression; kind of the opposite of vacuous.

    The same goes for the consumer of art. If you don't something about ancient history, Greek/Roman mythology and Christian iconography how are you ever going to get the most out of Michelangelo or Picasso or Shakespeare or Camus or Bach or Bartok or Sondheim or Bela Fleck or...? There's a reason that there are music/art appreciation classes at the universities, pre-concert/exhibition talks and outreach programs from your local symphony or art gallery.

    I don't think it is elitist to thirst for knowledge and strive for excellence; to know things on a deep and intricate level, to be an expert, or to recognize such in others. I don't really think you do either, judging from you past posts and obvious knowledge and expertise. I'd say we are more in agreement on things than your last post might indicate.

    Best,

    Doremus

  3. #83
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    Heroique,
    Let's not bet bellicose here But thanks for the compliement (but not for the dismal prophecy...).

    Michael,
    I knew I was risking sounding elitist, but really, I don't think it's all that far-fetched to aver that education and training are essential to excellence in just about any endeavor. Every good musician I know didn't get where they are by instinct, innate ability or pure talent; they study and they practice their asses off. Visual arts, on the other hand, seems to currently have a less-practiced bunch of practitioners, but I truly believe that the art that really lasts and has deep cultural meaning is that which has been informed by knowledge and created with consummate craft. (Mind you, that does not exclude modern and conceptual art in the least).

    No one would even entertain the idea that one could become a physicist, mathematician, or even a competent plumber or house painter without proper training and mastery of their craft. Why on earth should one then surmise that becoming an excellent photographer, painter, sculptor, etc. requires only a desire to express and whatever native skills we are born with?

    Knowing, practicing and refining your craft and knowing the history of the medium you work in are just the beginning of becoming an artist. Knowing attendant disciplines that bear on your field as well as having a good cultural education in the arts and sciences enrich and cross-pollinate the expression of said artistic endeavor. Then all you need is to have something to add to the discussion.

    How many times have I heard a jazz pianist or saxophonist quote Mahler or Chopin in their improvisations? How many direct references are there in music and the visual arts to history, mythology, philosophy, etc. The artists involved knew their stuff; they studied and thought. Only after all that work liberates and informs their expression does it really approach excellence. The result is a richer and more intense expression; kind of the opposite of vacuous.

    The same goes for the consumer of art. If you don't something about ancient history, Greek/Roman mythology and Christian iconography how are you ever going to get the most out of Michelangelo or Picasso or Shakespeare or Camus or Bach or Bartok or Sondheim or Bela Fleck or...? There's a reason that there are music/art appreciation classes at the universities, pre-concert/exhibition talks and outreach programs from your local symphony or art gallery.

    I don't think it is elitist to thirst for knowledge and strive for excellence; to know things on a deep and intricate level, to be an expert, or to recognize such in others. I don't really think you do either, judging from you past posts and obvious knowledge and expertise. I'd say we are more in agreement on things than your last post might indicate.

    Best,

    Doremus
    You don't have to become a master plumber to enjoy a toilet. You're conflating the artist with the viewer. You don't have to be able to draw or snap pictures to enjoy a beautiful painting or inspiring photograph.

  4. #84
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    That is not what Doremus is talking about -- he is talking about increasing the depth of one's enjoyment through knowledge.

    One still has to know how to use a toilet to get satisfaction from it. And NO! We do not have the innate knowledge and ability to use a modern toilet. That is why it is called toilet training,.
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

  5. #85
    lab black
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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    I do believe that Mr. Adams and Mr. Caponigro would be interesting examples regarding how their backgrounds in music influenced their photographic images.
    "We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have."
    Henry James

  6. #86

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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    Adams and Caponigro both trained as classical musicians; Adams wrote about music and photography many times. I don't know what, if anything, Caponigro has written on the subject, but I'm sure that it would be worth looking up.
    As for myself, I agree with Mr. Gittings.

  7. #87
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    That is not what Doremus is talking about -- he is talking about increasing the depth of one's enjoyment through knowledge.

    One still has to know how to use a toilet to get satisfaction from it. And NO! We do not have the innate knowledge and ability to use a modern toilet. That is why it is called toilet training,.
    If the art doesn't grab in in the first two seconds, it's just conversation after that.

  8. #88

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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    If the art doesn't grab in in the first two seconds, it's just conversation after that.
    But there's those times you have been somewhere many times, but one time the place feels more "magic" than others... Then the next time, the "magic" is gone...

    Explain that away, folks...

    Steve K

  9. #89

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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    As previously mentioned be it music or images, there is a language these two forms of human expression. More fluent an individual is the language of music or images, the more content an individual can receive from these languages.

    ~If an individual was only fluent in English then went to Asia fluent in none of the native Asian languages, how much communication can be shared via language ?

    There is work and effort involved in becoming fluent in any means of communications be it language, music, visual arts..
    Folks once concert pianist Dudley Moore made a education series with Sir George Solti titled Orchestra to aid in understanding the Orchestra and music.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Ca...icMU8dPt4p4_Qn

    This series was successful which prompted Dudley to do more with the Concerto Series with Michael Tilson Thomas:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BdJg54PChc&t=2603s

    After Dudley Moore's death Michael Tilson Thomas went on to produce the Keeping Score series:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5DfYcT5icY

    ~Ponder why were these films and videos done_?_

    Much the same applies to the visual arts, learning about art history and all related to visual arts can further fluency and deepen an individuals understanding of what visual works of art is trying to say and share with the observer.

    1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr5KKbD5OxU

    2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gvLEjp7B30

    3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29KsPUZUSPk


    For those who are interested in increasing their fluency in these languages of human expression does this need for learning_understanding brand them as "elitist" ?

    Yet, one does not need to be greatly fluent in these languages of human expression to greatly enjoy them or be greatly skilled at the craft, technology, skill, methods and all related to creating them.

    This is not a battle over Human Expression -vs- Human Perfection.


    Bernice

  10. #90

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    Re: Music as analogy for LF photography

    That would be a ~no~ as initial appearance tends to be superficial, what might be the deeper meaning with any work of art that does not come from the superficial initial appearance?


    Bernice

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    If the art doesn't grab in in the first two seconds, it's just conversation after that.

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