Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

**Drew Wiley** · 3-Dec-2021, 16:28

How long will your focus rack and bellows extend? That gives you a fair estimate of the longest focal length lens you can use at infinity. There are some additional tricks like racking things out a bit further using base tilts, or an extension lensboard, or of course, telephoto lens options. But once you get into a longer focal length than what is already under consideration, it's unlikely it will fold up within a folder style camera itself, depending. There are all kinds of "field cameras", with quite a range of specifications, so no generic answer is possible. Back when Graflex and Technical cameras were often used for press purposes, it was helpful to have a lens already in place ready to go; but otherwise, Bob S. said it right (and he represented Linhof Technika) - why risk it?

So now Helios, a second question would be whether one wants to a top-notch color film performance as well as b&w, or just good black and white results. A simple decision. If even contemplating getting into color, it makes sense for a person to get a fully modern lens with a high-degree of color correction to begin with, which will do both competently. Fuji A's are among those.

Thanks for posting your shot in question. All kinds of things could be causing the issue you're complaining about, not necessarily the lens itself. Even some lack of evenness in how the film is resting in the holder could do that. I dunno. Doesn't resemble any problem I've ever had. One needs to sleuth such issues a step at a time until they find the real cause. Your plane of focus itself might be a little out of whack. Did you check through your loupe that both the lower portion and the top at the spire were both in acute focus before the shot, and that everything was locked down well before inserting the holder? There are also some technique tricks that can help you attain better focus on points further afield in the image circle, which warrant some study. Some of that might have been already discussed on the Style and Techniques portion of the forum. If not, it can be. And unless something else is identified, causing your problem, I do suspect it's a specific focus technique issue, and one which can be explained later if needed. In the meantime, just try the same shot at f/32.

**Sal Santamaura** · 3-Dec-2021, 17:29

Originally Posted by helios

...Again, I am not saying Fuji A 180mm is bad, but interested to know if anyone who used it at full coverage experienced similar degradation.

As mentioned in post #5 of this thread, my sample (and Christoper Perez's / Kerry Thalmann's sample) of this lens exhibits sharpness falloff long before reaching its specified image circle. It degrades at the edges of a centered 4x5 frame, i.e. 150mm diameter.

Originally Posted by Ig Nacio

...If I am understanding Sal and Bob right, a lens, like the Sironar-N 180mm., (f/5.6), whose overall length is 57mm. will not fit into any field camera because it is too long...

Neither Bob nor I wrote that. I indicated that any lens folding in a Horseman metal technical camera cannot have a front element exceeding 43mm diameter. Bob stated that a 180mm Sironar-N won't close inside a Technika camera because the lens is too long. Beyond those two data points, each camera/lens combination must be evaluated individually.

**Drew Wiley** · 3-Dec-2021, 18:10

Should I guess the all too predictable snapback to one of my threads? Nope. Same ole, same ole, no doubt. I've heard it all before, whatever. One can believe whoever they wish. If someone has a lawnmower running smoothy for twenty years, but someone else tells you it only works for fifteen minutes at a time, who would you surmise understands the machine better?

**xkaes** · 3-Dec-2021, 19:05

On my field cameras there is a little more than 1/2" of space in front of the lens board WHEN CLOSED for the shutter and lens (and filter and lens cap). Not much to work with. If the lens board is reversed -- assuming the lens and shutter will fit through the hole -- there is about 1 1/4". A little more, but the rear of lens still needs to be under 1/2" when reversed. Since I normally carry more than one lens, that approach doesn't help me out, but for someone who only works with one small lens, it's feasible. There were a couple of field cameras that had large holes on the bottom for longer lenses to fit when closed -- no name comes to mind -- but the rear of the lens still needs to be pretty short. And I doubt anyone would swap field cameras simply for that feature -- but I've been wrong before!

Anyway, the Fujinon W 150mm f6.3 is a 1/2" thinner than the pretty thin A 180mm f9.0. That should fit just about anything -- although I don't have one any longer to test out.

**helios** · 4-Dec-2021, 00:33

Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

How long will your focus rack and bellows extend? That gives you a fair estimate of the longest focal length lens you can use at infinity. There are some additional tricks like racking things out a bit further using base tilts, or an extension lensboard, or of course, telephoto lens options. But once you get into a longer focal length than what is already under consideration, it's unlikely it will fold up within a folder style camera itself, depending. There are all kinds of "field cameras", with quite a range of specifications, so no generic answer is possible. Back when Graflex and Technical cameras were often used for press purposes, it was helpful to have a lens already in place ready to go; but otherwise, Bob S. said it right (and he represented Linhof Technika) - why risk it?

So now Helios, a second question would be whether one wants to a top-notch color film performance as well as b&w, or just good black and white results. A simple decision. If even contemplating getting into color, it makes sense for a person to get a fully modern lens with a high-degree of color correction to begin with, which will do both competently. Fuji A's are among those.

Thanks for posting your shot in question. All kinds of things could be causing the issue you're complaining about, not necessarily the lens itself. Even some lack of evenness in how the film is resting in the holder could do that. I dunno. Doesn't resemble any problem I've ever had. One needs to sleuth such issues a step at a time until they find the real cause. Your plane of focus itself might be a little out of whack. Did you check through your loupe that both the lower portion and the top at the spire were both in acute focus before the shot, and that everything was locked down well before inserting the holder? There are also some technique tricks that can help you attain better focus on points further afield in the image circle, which warrant some study. Some of that might have been already discussed on the Style and Techniques portion of the forum. If not, it can be. And unless something else is identified, causing your problem, I do suspect it's a specific focus technique issue, and one which can be explained later if needed. In the meantime, just try the same shot at f/32.

Thanks. Bellows extend to 3xx mm and I use Nikkor M 300mm with maximum camera movements without any issues. I see similar effect with Super Symmar XL 110mm lens when applying 45mm rise, just way way more subtle than this example. In contrast, I can move e.g. Nikkor SW 90mm f8 and earlier SA 90mm f5.6 MC at f22 to the limits without any visible sharpness loss, and that with those lenses having smaller IC than Fuji or Super Symmar. Here the image is basically ruined. But you are right, one sample is nothing to make conclusions. More tests are needed.

**Sal Santamaura** · 4-Dec-2021, 10:00

Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

Should I guess the all too predictable snapback to one of my threads?...

Your self flattery continues. I replied to helios and Ig, not you.

By the way, this isn't your thread. Ig is the OP. Your "contributions" are called posts. Try to keep up.

Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

...One can believe whoever they wish...

Yup, readers can conclude there's veracity in the posts of those who report specifics about topics under discussion or those with huge numbers of posts who believe they know everything about everything and are unable to resist telling everyone that they do.

**Michael R** · 4-Dec-2021, 10:19

Originally Posted by helios

Also I am not sure I understand the point about BW vs Color. Resolution won’t get better regardless if BW or Color, won’t it? I am not only doing BW, so not sure what is that “potential relevance” thing is about.

You’re correct. Assuming you are using panchromatic B&W film, if the image isn’t sharp in B&W it won’t be sharp in colour, and vice versa.

**Drew Wiley** · 4-Dec-2021, 10:46

Michael - lack of full "apo" correction in lenses when using panchromatic film, and that lens' capacity for resolution, can often be improved by using a contrast filter which blocks some of the stray light. For example, I have a particular MF telephoto which doesn't bring the red into fully tight focus, so using a deep green filter on it distinctly improves the sharpness of the image on pan film. And some convertible LF lens sets, like the Wisner, offered an optional correction filter for color use. But nowadays, many lenses are fully corrected for both black and white purposes, and that would include the Fuji A series, which are especially well corrected. But sometimes UV can still be a factor, so we still use UV and skylight filters with certain color films.

Older lenses, mostly pre-60's, are sometimes an issue. My brother used a Tele-Xenar on his Technika that was decent for black and white, but simply wouldn't provide crisp color images without fringing. I mention all this simply because when so many lens recommendations come up from forum member, and some of those lenses are of older vintage, and proved valuable to them for black and white work, it doesn't mean they'll necessarily do so well in color. It has to be taken on a case by case basis.

**Michael R** · 4-Dec-2021, 11:24

Using the green filter to block red is equivalent to using an emulsion not sensitive to red (ortho for example). Either way you are not using red light to expose the film. That’s why I said Helios’s statement is correct for pan film. For a given lens and incoming spectrum, an image recorded on panchromatic B&W film will be subject to the same flaws as an image recorded on a colour film and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Drew Wiley

Michael - lack of full "apo" correction in lenses when using panchromatic film, and that lens' capacity for resolution, can often be improved by using a contrast filter which blocks some of the stray light. For example, I have a particular MF telephoto which doesn't bring the red into fully tight focus, so using a deep green filter on it distinctly improves the sharpness of the image on pan film. And some convertible LF lens sets, like the Wisner, offered an optional correction filter for color use. But nowadays, many lenses are fully corrected for both black and white purposes, and that would include the Fuji A series, which are especially well corrected. But sometimes UV can still be a factor, so we still use UV and skylight filters with certain color films.

Older lenses, mostly pre-60's, are sometimes an issue. My brother used a Tele-Xenar on his Technika that was decent for black and white, but simply wouldn't provide crisp color images without fringing. I mention all this simply because when so many lens recommendations come up from forum member, and some of those lenses are of older vintage, and proved valuable to them for black and white work, it doesn't mean they'll necessarily do so well in color. It has to be taken on a case by case basis.