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Thread: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

  1. #61

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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    71/2" f4.5 Kodak Ektar (5x7 Sinar C) test images made using 13x18cm Agfachrome RS100, E6 Processed at The New Lab circa mid 1990's

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    Bernice

  2. #62
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    What was really interested with respect to the specific lens under question (180 Fuji A) was how a quite accomplished nature/landscape photographer just up the hill from me was fishing around for a more compact 180 which might allow him to keep it on his 4X5 Technika even closed up. His favorite lens was a Fuji 180/5.6 NW. And now he got ahold of a 180A for comparison, albeit a rather old one. He had in place a rangefinder cam custom made and matched to his 180 NW, and thought that by using rangefinder focus itself he would obtain a more accurate impression of the alternate lens, since really acute focus was difficult on his ground glass itself with the fresnel brightener in place. But what he didn't realize is that, although both lenses were nominally labeled 180, the exact focal length as engineered was slightly different. He apparently didn't check the spec sheet first. So he came away with the incorrect assumption that there was something slightly wrong with the A version.
    He's a very well educated individual and really nitpicky with his equipment, but sometimes to the point he can't see the forest for the trees, and misses something. So it goes.

  3. #63

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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    Hello,

    I take up the discussion here, because I was wondering if there is any information, if there is a optimum aperture setting for the Fujinon-A lenses?

    As for the

  4. #64
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    Depends what you're doing. Designing lenses this focal length with the largest aperture of f/9 rather than f/5.6 means that most potential problems are already cropped from the image circle, and by f/11 these lenses pretty much on their own. But in real world usage, given depth of field management in the scene, as well as taking into account the variable of film unevenness in the holder, most people tend to shoot these around f/22 to f/32. And despite all the "the sky is falling" chatter about diffraction loss at smaller stops, it's almost NIL at this point with respect to ANY PRACTICAL PURPOSE, including big enlargements. (picture books and magazine spreads are NOT big enlargements). By f/45 there is some visible qualitative loss due to diffraction which could affect fussy applications with 4x5 film.

    Therefore, I repeat, what constitutes "optimum" all depends on your application. But folks who over-obsess about hypothetical MTF specs at particular stops with the lens used simply head-on, and ignore the repercussions of tangential performance with tilts, or what is needed to balance out any lack of focal plane consistency in the greater system (including the issue of non-film-flatness itself), are just fooling themselves. That's why by far the majority of the time I shoot these 180's and 240's at either f/22 or f/32, that is with respect to 4x5 format.

    With 8x10, it more likely to be double that, preferably f/45, but sometimes f/64 if needed (with the equivalent perspective 360 Fuji A for 8x10 film). And in the case of 8x10, I minimize the film flatness variable by using adhesive holders any time I think the shot might potentially be used for a big enlargement.

    But going the other direction, and selecting a 6x9 roll film back instead, only the center of the optic is being used, and the film is tightly tensioned by the roller mechanism, so I might use any of these lenses at a wider aperture like f/11 or f/16, but still wouldn't hesitate to use f/22 or f/22 if the depth of field logistics called for it.

  5. #65

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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    Along the same line, much depends on your subject. I bought my 180mm A 9.0 for close-up work -- that's what it is optimized for. On my 4x5, I can only get to 1:1, but in most cases when I use the 180mm A, I want plenty of DOF -- and there isn't much at any f-stop very close-up. So MY optimum f-stop is the one that gives me the DOF I need.

  6. #66

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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    More by chance I found a Fujinon-A 240mm. I already have a G-Claron and a Symmar-S in 240mm. When I have the time and the inclination, i will try to find out how the three differ. I didn't want to make excessive lens tests here. My plan was to make "real world tests" on 4x5" at f/22. This is my normal working aperture for most cases.

    Now I have already done some pre-tests with a digital camera instead of film (1:20). The Symmar and the G-Claron were slightly better (higher resulution) than the Fujinon-A at f/22, but the latter was better at f/32 than both others at f/22. I was wondering if I did make I am unsure whether I have not worked exactly or whether this can be the case. I think I will do some extra tests also at 1:5 or 1:3.

  7. #67

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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    You should not expect to get the best results out of any Fujinon A lens when tested outside of it's optimum range -- 1:5 to 1:1. It's better to compare apples to apples.

  8. #68
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    Nonsense! - A's are SUPERB all the way from around 1:2 clear out to INFINITY - actually better than most general purpose plasmats even at infinity. I've relied on that fact for many many many shots with Fuji A' in multiple focal lengths on different formats for many years. They're absolutely wonderful for distance shots in the mountains, for example, and were prized by 4x5 expedition photographers. I've used the 360 A not only for 8x10, but in lieu of a tele for 4x5 and even 6x9 for decades now.

    As far as Fuji 240 vs 250 G Claron, they're quite similar in performance and real-world image circle. Both comfortably cover 8x10 reasonably stopped down. The A comes in a 0 shutter so is a little bit smaller than the GC in a no.1. The A is MC (except in very early ones, which I've never seen an example of), while GC is single coated, making the A a little bit contrastier. Otherwise, I interchange them without noticing the difference. The old Symmar S will distinctly have a still bigger image circle, somewhat less contrast and sharpness than either, and not as good near-macro performance; but its slightly gentler background blur and hue rendering is sometimes nice to have. Otherwise, a 240 will be a giant brick of a lens in comparison to the others.

    Back then, a Schneider rep told me they considered their GC's as their flagship high-versatility plasmat series, even though they just advertised them for tabletop use, not general work. Maybe the smaller max aperture was the reason for that. Their image circles are way bigger than the brochure specs, as many on this forum already know; but for reasons of consistency with older graphics G-Clarons, Schneider apparently adopted graphics rather than general purpose standards when publishing the specs.

  9. #69

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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Nonsense! - A's are SUPERB all the way from around 1:2 clear out to INFINITY - actually better than most general purpose plasmats even at infinity...
    Different day, same absurdity. Fujinon A lenses vary from not so great to excellent at infinity, depending on focal length and sample. My 360A is superb, especially for 8x10. My 180A is far from that on 4x5. See post #5 above in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    ...250 G Claron...in a no.1...GC is single coated...
    So, Drew, when will you post a picture of this alleged 250mm G-Claron? As best my research can determine, Schneider never sold one in a shutter for photographic or graphic purposes. 240mm, yes, but not 250mm. Who knows, you might have the only one in the world. It could be worth a fortune. Please, share more information on the unicorn.

    Unless, of course, you're referring to a 250mm C-Claron, an f/5.6 copy lens.

  10. #70

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    Re: Fujinon 180mm. f/9 - Curious about some specs.

    All comes down to what the image goals are that drives choice of lens then camera required to support this basic need.

    If the requirement is every item in the image to be in perceived focus, then f45 could be a absolute requirement. If specific areas of image is to be in focus, this could require using lens aperture of f2.8 - f4.5 or similar. If the images are flat copy_graphic arts to printing work, then always using the "optimum" lens aperture (ala f22) could make rational sense. Much the same applies to optimized lens image ratios.

    Not convinced in any way the "sharpest" best "contrast" lens will produce the "best" image as there is SO much more to creative image excellence than these rudimentary image quality factors.

    Going back to this post on "sharpness" from a while ago:
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...420-microscope

    What has become too common today, folks take to the web to find the most highly Tooted "lens" then seek then out in any possible way as their answer to the "best photograph" ever made. There are only lenses that are a pile of trade offs to meet a limited range of image needs.


    Bernice

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