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Thread: Cameras with geared swing movement

  1. #41

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,839

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Rear swing difficult/problem with the Chamonix F2 can be fixed by using a strip of sheet sheet metal to tie the two rear frame support towers together forcing them to move in unison . Then put a pivot hole absolute on the center line of the rear frame and ground glass/film plane line to fix the center point of where the rear swing movement is applied.

    This would require the connecting strip of sheet metal to be directly under the Chamonix F2's center focusing mechanism.. which would need to be modified to implement this fix. The current swing adjust slots will need to made into an arc to allow proper rear swing movement.


    Bernice

  2. #42
    Nicholas O. Lindan
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Posts
    305

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    For architectural work I find I only need rise and shift. I can see occasions where a bit of swing might be in order, but it would be the tiniest bit.

    I don't think I have used anything but rise for outdoor shots - mountains taken with a wide angle lens, getting the top of the mountain in the frame and doing so without all the trees looking like they are falling over backwards.

    With 35mm and no rise I like to take mountain pictures from the vantage of an alpine meadow or a rushing stream, then the bottom half of the frame is filled with flowers or white water speeding through rocks and the top half of the frame has the mountains.
    Darkroom Automation / Cleveland Engineering Design, LLC
    f-Stop Timers & Enlarging meters http://www.darkroomautomation.com/da-main.htm

  3. #43

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    25

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Rear swing difficult/problem with the Chamonix F2 can be fixed by using a strip of sheet sheet metal to tie the two rear frame support towers together forcing them to move in unison . Then put a pivot hole absolute on the center line of the rear frame and ground glass/film plane line to fix the center point of where the rear swing movement is applied.

    This would require the connecting strip of sheet metal to be directly under the Chamonix F2's center focusing mechanism.. which would need to be modified to implement this fix. The current swing adjust slots will need to made into an arc to allow proper rear swing movement.


    Bernice
    Thanks Bernice. I guess I get your point, though it seems not so easy to implement for somebody with my (rather low) level of home craftmanship skills, but maybe worth informing manufacturer for potential future improvement. In fact I wonder why they abandoned dedicated swing knobs they did on 45N-2. Possibly just weight saving.

    I am seeing quite a few nice Sinar F2 offers, very affordable - likely to become my Christmas present. Can't believe new / old stock bag bellows cost 60 EUR, other parts seem to be very affordable too. Besides precision and convenience of movements controls it adds up quite a lot of movements range which is another bonus. I intend to keep using Chamonix for hikes and landscapes, it is brilliant camera for that purpose in my opinion.

  4. #44

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    25

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Quote Originally Posted by nolindan View Post
    For architectural work I find I only need rise and shift. I can see occasions where a bit of swing might be in order, but it would be the tiniest bit.
    Do you mean front or rear swing? I can hardly imagine architectural photography without horizontal perspective control (rear swing). But maybe it's just me, if somebody doesn't need it - that is perfectly fine.

  5. #45
    Randy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,435

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Tin Can View Post
    ... progressively dampened and locked
    That's what I was going to suggest - I often loosen the swing/tilt just slightly so that the bellows can't pull/push it one way or the other, then I just apply a tad more pressure to get it where I want.

    BTW, my old Gundlach wood 4X5 does have geared rear tilt but not swing.
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52893762/bigger4b.jpg

  6. #46

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,839

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Cost and complexity is likely why single lock knob/lever was not done on the 45N-2. IMO, as a light weight field folder rear camera movements are not often used and the majority of images made does not need this camera movement. Not designing and offering ease of implementing rear swing is an acceptable trade off given what the majority of users and image making needs are for a field folder.

    One other factor to consider is user experience, skill level and demands placed on any view camera. For those new to view camera, setting up to make a basic image is challenge enough. Add the complexities of view camera movements adds greatly to this challenge. For many new to view camera, there is incentive to not use camera movements as it can add greatly to the challenge and complexity. For those who spent hours upon hours using a view camera in-studio and in image making demands which require pushing any view camera to the absolute limits of their movement capabilities. For those view camera folks using a view camera in this way with these demands driven by image goals, lesser view cameras are not gonna work.

    If considering a Sinar F2, know many sellers do not know the difference between a F, F+, F1, F2 early and later versions. Many sellers ad media their Sinar offerings with mis-information and not knowing the differences between Sinar F cameras with all their variants over their decades of production.

    Basically, the F2 has focusing on the front standard and the base of the the rail attachment is different. All F2s have a wrap around rail clamp that slides off the rail. Some have a separate lock lever for shift.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sinar F2 front noted.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	65.5 KB 
ID:	221694

    This is the front standard on all Sinar F, it is very basic and often used as an auxiliary / accessory standard support for adding bellows, lens shade and any other widget that is needed to aid in achieving the image goal.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sinar F front.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	66.3 KB 
ID:	221695

    Know these differences before considering any Sinar camera purchase. Sinar has their user manual on line:
    https://sinar.swiss/assets/Uploads/S...-Manual-EN.PDF

    Sinar Catalog noting their system offering. Know what is listed in this catalog is backwards compatible with Sinar Norma. With Sinar it is getting involved with a modular view camera system with near complete interchangeability-modularity allowing the modules to be configured as needed.
    https://www.kennethleegallery.com/pd...em_katalog.pdf

    And yes, there are lots of Sinar cameras, camera outfits and accessories on the market at modest cost. Knowing these are the realities of the Sinar modular view camera system makes for many rational, logical and real world reasons to get involved with the Sinar system.


    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by helios View Post
    Thanks Bernice. I guess I get your point, though it seems not so easy to implement for somebody with my (rather low) level of home craftmanship skills, but maybe worth informing manufacturer for potential future improvement. In fact I wonder why they abandoned dedicated swing knobs they did on 45N-2. Possibly just weight saving.

    I am seeing quite a few nice Sinar F2 offers, very affordable - likely to become my Christmas present. Can't believe new / old stock bag bellows cost 60 EUR, other parts seem to be very affordable too. Besides precision and convenience of movements controls it adds up quite a lot of movements range which is another bonus. I intend to keep using Chamonix for hikes and landscapes, it is brilliant camera for that purpose in my opinion.

  7. #47

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Posts
    25

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Thank you for taking time and effort to write up and share such detailed explanation. At about 500 for a mint 4x5 outfit, Sinar F2 seems to be no brainer, even to just try it out and see how it goes with movements, bulk etc. Even if it will require backpack and tripod+head upgrade for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Cost and complexity is likely why single lock knob/lever was not done on the 45N-2. IMO, as a light weight field folder rear camera movements are not often used and the majority of images made does not need this camera movement. Not designing and offering ease of implementing rear swing is an acceptable trade off given what the majority of users and image making needs are for a field folder.

    One other factor to consider is user experience, skill level and demands placed on any view camera. For those new to view camera, setting up to make a basic image is challenge enough. Add the complexities of view camera movements adds greatly to this challenge. For many new to view camera, there is incentive to not use camera movements as it can add greatly to the challenge and complexity. For those who spent hours upon hours using a view camera in-studio and in image making demands which require pushing any view camera to the absolute limits of their movement capabilities. For those view camera folks using a view camera in this way with these demands driven by image goals, lesser view cameras are not gonna work.

    If considering a Sinar F2, know many sellers do not know the difference between a F, F+, F1, F2 early and later versions. Many sellers ad media their Sinar offerings with mis-information and not knowing the differences between Sinar F cameras with all their variants over their decades of production.

    Basically, the F2 has focusing on the front standard and the base of the the rail attachment is different. All F2s have a wrap around rail clamp that slides off the rail. Some have a separate lock lever for shift.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sinar F2 front noted.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	65.5 KB 
ID:	221694

    This is the front standard on all Sinar F, it is very basic and often used as an auxiliary / accessory standard support for adding bellows, lens shade and any other widget that is needed to aid in achieving the image goal.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sinar F front.jpg 
Views:	17 
Size:	66.3 KB 
ID:	221695

    Know these differences before considering any Sinar camera purchase. Sinar has their user manual on line:
    https://sinar.swiss/assets/Uploads/S...-Manual-EN.PDF

    Sinar Catalog noting their system offering. Know what is listed in this catalog is backwards compatible with Sinar Norma. With Sinar it is getting involved with a modular view camera system with near complete interchangeability-modularity allowing the modules to be configured as needed.
    https://www.kennethleegallery.com/pd...em_katalog.pdf

    And yes, there are lots of Sinar cameras, camera outfits and accessories on the market at modest cost. Knowing these are the realities of the Sinar modular view camera system makes for many rational, logical and real world reasons to get involved with the Sinar system.


    Bernice

  8. #48

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,839

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Post questions and image making needs as they come up. We will be here for. you.

    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by helios View Post
    Thank you for taking time and effort to write up and share such detailed explanation. At about 500 for a mint 4x5 outfit, Sinar F2 seems to be no brainer, even to just try it out and see how it goes with movements, bulk etc. Even if it will require backpack and tripod+head upgrade for me.

  9. #49

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    St. Simons Island, Georgia
    Posts
    736

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Warning - there is Sinar creep. First a Sinar, then a few extra lens boards, then a bag bellows, next you’re shopping for the little kit that lets you use the extra bellows to shade the lens, then a Sinar shutter, then a couple of DB lenses just to fill the gaps …

  10. #50

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Pittsfield, MA
    Posts
    768

    Re: Cameras with geared swing movement

    Quote Originally Posted by j.e.simmons View Post
    Warning - there is Sinar creep. First a Sinar, then a few extra lens boards, then a bag bellows, next you’re shopping for the little kit that lets you use the extra bellows to shade the lens, then a Sinar shutter, then a couple of DB lenses just to fill the gaps …
    Then it starts to get bad….

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