Hunting for that special 4x5, my first LF camera

[Drew Wiley]

EQUALLY EQUIPPED (In my case, with an 18 inch rail and equivalently long bellows), I find the Norma only about a pound heavier than the F2. It is a little bulkier, but more rigid too. They do need to be tuned up from time to time, which is fairly straightforward once you've learned how. I'd avoid an F+ or F1 unless you find a bargain one for sake of spare components; the front standard is less durable, and really just the same thing as an "intermediate bellows standard". Any of them are quite usable in the field. But no matter which specific model, with a Sinar you're buying into a very large system of options. Nearly everything is interchangeable. The only exception would be the oddball ultralight A1 Alpina, which has a completely different rail profile.

[CreationBear]

Forum moderator O-ren usually takes his Hanzo sword to outside links to sales , so I'll forgo commenting unless you'd like me to respond in a PM.

Otherwise, if Neil didn't link to the thread he started a while back, I've found his hack really genius:

https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ma-8x10-Camera

Since he's dealing with an 8x10 which is of course being quite a bit thicker than your 4x5, he uses a cap/dowel as an extender to get the rail to about nine inches. You would be able to use the short rail by itself for the 4x5, but the nice thing about Neil's mod is that it gives you enough space to keep the rail bushing in place between the front and rear standards, basically letting you have a QR system.

[justlikeswimming]

Forum moderator O-ren usually takes his Hanzo sword to outside links to sales , so I'll forgo commenting unless you'd like me to respond in a PM.

Otherwise, if Neil didn't link to the thread he started a while back, I've found his hack really genius:

https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ma-8x10-Camera

Since he's dealing with an 8x10 which is of course being quite a bit thicker than your 4x5, he uses a cap/dowel as an extender to get the rail to about nine inches. You would be able to use the short rail by itself for the 4x5, but the nice thing about Neil's mod is that it gives you enough space to keep the rail bushing in place between the front and rear standards, basically letting you have a QR system.

Feel free to PM, CreationBear, and thank you!

After reading very carefully the hack devised by Neil, it is indeed a very clever and effective way to compact the 8x10 system for packing. Something to think about as a packing solution for my future system.

I'm leaning toward the Norma (love the look) but have a few questions/comments, if anyone is patient enough to put up with a few more...
1) just to make sure, could I update the Norma to a 5x7 or larger? I know this possible with the F-series.
2)Can the rails be extended as with the later Sinar models? Also, much of the hardware can be exchanged between the Sinars but I'm not sure that extends to the earlier camera.
3) I was checking out 4x5s and came across the Horseman L45. I appreciated the gears and the macro rail function of the rail bushing, but it is a heavy beast. I would dismiss this camera immediately (due to weight), but then I saw a couple videos online. One video showed smooth geared movements using a L45, while another video using the F2 made the Sinar movements appear jerky and difficult. The Sinar user was speaking in German (which I don't understand), for all I know this was a fairly new camera to him or it needed a good CLA.

I'm OK with non-geared controls if they can be accurately adjusted and tightened down without excessive shifting. The Horseman would have to be much better to justify the weight (searching LFPF about the camera revealed some real haters of the Horseman).


I keep on coming up with new questions - you folks have been wonderful (and so patient), thanks so much! Any comments you have are greatly appreciated!

[LabRat]

Another consideration in the field vs monorail choice, is the OP mentioned macro work... When doing macro or very close-up focusing, the preferred setting is that the lens stays at a constant lens to subject distance, but the back can move slightly to focus... Front focusing cameras change the relationship drastically and plenty of not perfect focus points come up and hard to find the perfect focus point...

At even closer distances, camera is allowed to use one focus point, but camera itself is moved forward/backward until perfect focus is achieved...

An afternoon of shooting tiny objects will reveal the issues involved, and the fixes...

Steve K

[otto.f]

If I infer from the Horseman and Wista what your budget is, I wonder why you didn’t consider a Chamonix. You’re mentioning rough hikes indeed, but I wonder if the difference with a Horseman would be significant, considering it’s almost twice the weight of a Chamonix. So if it bumps, it bumps harder. With the leather protection the Chamonix’s are quite safe in a backpack where the dark cloth serves as a protection too. Which is not to say that the Horseman isn’t an attractive camera.

[John Power]

Though new here myself, I am already repeatedly banging the drum for rails in backpacks. I've not once thought "I wish I had a folder".

This is a carry on sized backpack with my rail camera (the L45 mentioned above), 90, 135 and 300mm lenses, usually 4 holders, spotmeter, loupe, another meter, pen, filters, shutter cables, etc. Tripod straps to the side. I ride my mountain bike with this kit for hours without issue. I don't love it when an hour or two ride becomes more, but that's asking a lot.

Thinking about weight, think about the weight of the system... 600g or whatever this is over a lighter camera is next to nothing when everything else is in there.

[Havoc]

Another consideration in the field vs monorail choice, is the OP mentioned macro work... When doing macro or very close-up focusing, the preferred setting is that the lens stays at a constant lens to subject distance, but the back can move slightly to focus... Front focusing cameras change the relationship drastically and plenty of not perfect focus points come up and hard to find the perfect focus point...

At even closer distances, camera is allowed to use one focus point, but camera itself is moved forward/backward until perfect focus is achieved...

An afternoon of shooting tiny objects will reveal the issues involved, and the fixes...

Steve K

I think this is a very important point to consider.

[CreationBear]

Just to take up your questions:

1.) The most turn-key solution to change formats is to get what's termed a "format change kit" which is simply the carrier frame/GG assembly, bellows, and back standard of a 5x7 Sinar. Of course, since that's the "heart" of any Sinar camera, expect to pay a bit. (FWIW, I have both the 5x7 and 8x10 format change kits--what I'm finding is that there's no appreciable difference in size/weight between the two, which might affect your choices once you decide on your output.)

2.) Rails are certainly compatible and expandable--and indeed seem to be multiplying in my gear bins.

3.) I can't speak to efficacy/necessity of geared movements, though I had geared rise on my Horseman technical camera. As for my Norma, movements seem smooth, as does the geared fine-focus. I will say that "serious" backcountry macro work always struck me as a different kind of cat, so I would definitely ask for specific guidance from the folks on the board who do that kind of work.

[Bernice Loui]

For close up aka "macro" images a monorail has a distinct advantage over any field folder due to their innate differences. Field folders are mandated to have essentially a fixed rear that cannot easily and completely independently be moved from the front standard with the tripod support fixed.

Moving the front standard with lens alters the magnification or image reproduction ratio while moving the rear standard (film or digital imager) focuses the image. Fine focus front and rear allows fine tuning of both magnification / image ratio, rear fine focus tunes in the focus. Camera movements allow controlling what areas of the lens plane of focus to be adjusted/bent as needed within limits.

Second, a modular monorail like Sinar allows using an extra standard as a macro subject table which keeps camera to small subject moving-vibrating together as a unit. This aids significantly to keeping camera to subject movement in check. Essentially unlimited rail extension with complete modularity of the Sinar system allows using longer lens focal lengths promoting distance between lens to macro subject allowing proper lighting to be used. Know lighting is often MORE important than lens for macro images.

Sinar shutter allows using virtually any barrel lens (reverse mounted enlarger lenses work remarkable for macro images) or microscope objectives as lenses for macro low to modest magnification microscope images.


Again, this all goes back to image goals.

Bernice

Another consideration in the field vs monorail choice, is the OP mentioned macro work... When doing macro or very close-up focusing, the preferred setting is that the lens stays at a constant lens to subject distance, but the back can move slightly to focus... Front focusing cameras change the relationship drastically and plenty of not perfect focus points come up and hard to find the perfect focus point...

At even closer distances, camera is allowed to use one focus point, but camera itself is moved forward/backward until perfect focus is achieved...

An afternoon of shooting tiny objects will reveal the issues involved, and the fixes...

Steve K

[Bernice Loui]

Format change within Sinar system is easy. This can be done by sliding off the current format back with bellows (example 4x5), then sliding on the complete format as needed with bellows (5x7, 8x10 or etc) on to the rail.

All Sinar modules mix-match from Norma to F, F+, F1, F2, P, P2, X, P3 and aux standards. All Sinar rails from Norma to last of production are completely interchangeable. Bellows are interchangeable from Norma to F, F+, F1, F2, P, P2, X long as the rear format frame matches.. with the exception of 8x10 as the metering back -vs- non metering back have a different rear bellows frame.

One example of mixing Norma with P2 with an aux standard to aid in extending bellows/camera extension. This is important for macro or much longer than normal focal length lenses (tele). No "top hat" lens board need in any way.


Compressed to allow using short focal length (wide angle) lenses without a recessed board or similar fuss. Mixed Norma and P2.


More Sinar modularity..


Geared movements are easier and faster to use in studio type settings where precise, accurate and repeatable camera movements, they are by no means mandatory. Non geared camera movements that are smooth and precise are in ways faster and easier to used as they allow far faster setting by direct movement -vs- knob twisting. Geared camera movements adds weight and complexity to any view camera.


Bernice