Should Kodak/Fuji rethink color sheet film for room temp processing?

[Drew Wiley]

Digital shooting is a whole different ballgame. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same. The whole point with actual color film for me is that I can print it in my own darkroom facility to a very high degree of quality, and avoid all the secondary jumping through hoops. Even if masks are in place, they're there to modify the actual original exposure itself, integrally and directly. Nothing is lost, just subtly emphasized or de-emphasized. And I like the more subtle tonal and hue control possible, versus being stuck on the inkjet path if a digital camera were used (though there are other options, just not as conveniently). Don't try to re-train a trumpet player to play a fiddle instead. Different tones.

[Bruce Watson]

I used to think about that but 1. Kodak's problem is supplying enough film...

Kodak, last I heard, wasn't in the film business anymore. Who owns the gigantic film coating line in Rochester these days? Anyone know? Oren?

And why don't you think it's a supply problem? Kodak, before bankruptcy, said demand was so low that they were at minimum production (I remember something about a single shift four days a week). They were having problems with finished film going out of date in storage due (and being scrapped) because of low orders from retailers. That's not a supply problem, that's a demand problem.

[Sal Santamaura]

...Who owns the gigantic film coating line in Rochester these days? Anyone know?...

Yes. Eastman Kodak Company. And, according to someone with industry connections, demand at least for 35mm film is exceeding Kodak's capacity to finish it from master rolls:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread.../#post-2407594

[Oren Grad]

There hasn't been any R&D done in film, chemical processing, or darkroom printing in decades.

Little or no fundamental R, but a fair bit of D in recent years - Kodak reformulating Ektachrome to enable bringing it back to production, new-generation Multigrade RC emulsion at Harman/Ilford, ongoing work at Adox to bring additional films and papers to (or back to) production in their new facility, to name some obvious examples.

[Drew Wiley]

Kodak is still making film, and even doing some investment to increase production. The marketing entity side of it is a little more involved, and not the old Kodak per se. The problem all along is that they had so many tentacles into so many things, and were so captive to the stock market, that they couldn't juggle all the eggs at once anymore. If they had operated and thought like a smaller dedicated film and paper producer instead, seeking just a net profit instead of still trying to keep up with the Jones's on Wall Street, they could have managed all along, that is, if divided into several smaller independent companies. But publicly traded corporations aren't run like that, so it's been smoke and mirrors huffing and puffing ever since they put much of their own significant profits into buying back their own stock just before it plummeted, instead of using that money to upgrade their business and manufacturing model. But that's all ancient history now. Even if their film selection is much smaller than it once was, and overall sales volume much smaller, the quality and performance of their film products is better than ever. Not dead by any means.

[Mark Sampson]

It's just that few of us realize the just how big Kodak's Research Labs were, and how much it cost (in time as well as money) to invent new processes and films.
I was, if not 'there', at least down the hall, and believe me, the amount of testing and analysis done on any new product is extremely lengthy and expensive.
EK began cutting Research Labs' budget in the mid-90s; there must be very little left, and the deep institutional knowledge that made photographic innovations possible must be almost gone. I'm sure that the True Believers still there are doing a great job, but they are few compared to the heyday.
I'm sure it would be possible to re-design E-6 to work at 68F, but no corporation would ever attempt it, simply because they could never recoup the expense.

[LabRat]

80°F for C-41 is not hard to hold for the 3 something minutes of development... Allowing the temp to fall from slightly above will slowly fall in that time window...

E-6 is a little more critical, but with getting everything ready before hand and a larger water bath, not difficult...

With C-41, you can develop at different temps, but will have a specific color balance at each temp, so you need to be consistent...

Steve K

[sharktooth]

We're in a catch 22 situation with large format color film. Color films are designed for high speed machine processing, since time is money. Machines are expensive though, so you need to have a lot of product running through those machines to justify the cost. The problem these days is that the volume of film needing processing is tiny now, and there's hardly anyone left who can make money processing color sheet film. It was nice that Kodak brought back Ektachrome, but finding someone that can do E-6 processing is like finding hen's teeth. The catch 22 is that you can buy the film, but you may not be able to get it processed, and if you can't get it processed you won't buy the film. I don't see a happy ending with that strategy.

I think the time has come to acknowledge that film will never be a mass market product like it was in the past, so we shouldn't keep trying to make it suit the mass market. It needs to be tailored to the artists and hobbyists now if it's to remain viable. Black and white film has lasted since it's been doing exactly that. It survived since it's can be done simply and easily without expensive equipment.

Another option might be to go back to the original roots of Kodak success, where they sold the film with the processing (you take the picture, we do the rest). I remember shooting lots of Kodachrome and sending it off to Kodak in the prepaid mailers. Maybe something like that could work again now.

[Ironage]

I have been concentrating on my color processing and have been using a tempered bath in a restaurant bin heated by a Anova Suss vide. Now I think temperature control for B&W processing is more troublesome!

[Tin Can]

KODAK is not thinking about much

nor listening