Wide Lenses for 4x5 & 8x10: 90mm to 165mm

[r.e.]

As much as I find myself enjoying my recently-acquired 110XL (mainly for 5x7)...I still cannot seem to let go of my 120mm f/8 Super Angulon - despite its being twice as large and half as bright as the newer, "better" lens. Something about the geometry of the SA's rendering I think, perhaps as this relates specifically to 5x7, but might be more than this. Interesting.

For financial reasons, for me it was either Schneider's Super-Symmar XL 110mm or 150mm, not both. My reasons for choosing the 150mm should be fairly clear from earlier posts.

This is where I've wound up on the wide end:

4x5 & 6x12
Rodenstock APO-Grandagon 55mm f/4.5
Rodenstock Grandagon-N MC 75mm f/4.5
Rodenstock Grandagon MC 90mm f/6.8

I acquired the 55mm and 90mm after I started this thread. The 90mm was on my "long list" on the chart in post #1. All three lenses will take Rodenstock's 67/86 0.45ND centre filter.*

8x10
Schneider Super-Symmar XL 150mm f/5.6 & Schneider's 4a centre filter


* There are posts in the forum about a different centre filter for Rodenstock's APO-Grandagon 55mm f/4.5. I'm comfortable with using the centre filter that I have. Note from the photo below that Rodenstock specifically approves it for use with all three lenses (see label on the left).


Rodenstock E67/86 0.45ND Centre Filter

[Bob Salomon]

For financial reasons, for me it was either Schneider's Super-Symmar XL 110mm or 150mm, not both. My reasons for choosing the 150mm should be fairly clear from earlier posts.

This is where I've wound up on the wide end:

4x5
Rodenstock APO-Grandagon 55mm f/4.5
Rodenstock Grandagon-N MC 75mm f/4.5
Rodenstock Grandagon MC 90mm f/6.8

I acquired the 55mm and 90mm after I started this thread. The 90mm was on my "long list" on the chart in post #1. All three lenses will take Rodenstock's 67/86 0.45ND centre filter.*

8x10
Schneider Super-Symmar XL 150mm f/5.6 & Schneider's 4a centre filter


* There are posts in the forum about a different centre filter for Rodenstock's APO-Grandagon 55mm f/4.5. I'm comfortable with using the centre filter that I have. Note from the photo below that Rodenstock specifically approves it for use with all three lenses (see label on the left).


Rodenstock E67/86 0.45ND Centre Filter

You have the later version of the filter. Earlier ones were available in two different versions. One for the Apo and one for the non apos. The earliest version of the 55 also had a different size front element and used a smaller center filter.

[r.e.]

You have the later version of the filter. Earlier ones were available in two different versions. One for the Apo and one for the non apos. The earliest version of the 55 also had a different size front element and used a smaller center filter.

Yes, and thanks very much for helping, in a pm exchange, to clear up my confusion on the question.

[r.e.]

This may interest people who need filters larger than 100mm, and 112mm filters in particular.

I say earlier in this thread that I'm standardised on 82mm screw-in filters and Lee100 100mm square filters. This means that I'm not set up for the 112mm outside thread on Schneider's 4a centre filter. Filter choice in that size is limited and prices are high.

Enter Nikon's fairly new Z-mount lens, the ultra-wide Nikkor Z 14-24mm f/2.8 S. This is a US$2400 lens with a 112mm filter thread. In response, several manufacturers are suddenly making 112mm filters, marketing them specifically to owners of this lens. In addition to the usual UV filters, they are offering polarisers and neutral density filters. Prices are high, but still lower than some brands. These are niche filters, and brief, attractive offers are quite liable to come up. Indeed, that's how I obtained the filter mentioned in post #76, NiSi's NiSi Pro Natural Circular Polariser, 112mm, at 50% off (B&H Flash Deal). In the next while, these filters may also start coming up on the second-hand market.

There are a couple of other options for ND, but they aren't cheap. The first is Lee's SW150 System for ultra-wide lenses if it can be set up to work with this lens. Lee's/Panavision's excellent ProGlass IRND filters are available for the SW150 system, but pricing is stiff. The other is to use my Arca-Swiss compendium shade and rig a filter holder for appropriately sized rectangular ND filters. This leads me in the direction of what is essentially a matte box system. As someone who shoots video, a matte box and filter tray was precisely what I wanted to avoid when I standardised around 82mm screw-in filters and Lee100. C'est la vie As mentioned in post #78, I'll also take a shot at trying limited ND - up to, say, two stops - on the rear element of the Schneider XL 150mm lens. If it doesn't interfere too much with focusing, and taking into account the light loss from the centre filter (added after focusing), this just might give me enough ND control. I'll have to do some reading on what impact, if any, an ND filter on the rear element may have on overall image quality.

[ic-racer]

If I need to correct for converging lines, I do it while printing.
This allows me to use some compact, easy to obtain lenses.
125mm and 180mm Fuji lenses on 8x10.
Also, since the sky or top portion of the image is farther away on the baseboard during correction, it prints lighter, so one does not have to worry about light falloff or center filters that would be needed when shifting a lens during camera exposure.

[xkaes]

This may interest people who need filters larger than 100mm, and 112mm filters in particular.

Thanks for the info.

It makes me glad I settled on 77mm filters as my standard long ago. These are easy to find and relatively inexpensive. Not too many lenses go over that -- and I couldn't afford them anyway.

[r.e.]

If I need to correct for converging lines, I do it while printing.
This allows me to use some compact, easy to obtain lenses.
125mm and 180mm Fuji lenses on 8x10.
Also, since the sky or top portion of the image is farther away on the baseboard during correction, it prints lighter, so one does not have to worry about light falloff or center filters that would be needed when shifting a lens during camera exposure.

It may interest future readers of this thread to know that these and other Fuji options are also discussed earlier in this thread.

[ic-racer]

Lot of reading in this thread, but I did read your post #42, but I'd call both the Fuji 180mm and 125mm very modern lenses with the latest design, construction and shutters.

[rawitz]

For myths and facts of SuperAngulon MC and SSymmar XL here some original Schneider datas for SA 165 MC and SSXL 150



What we see clearly is, the SSXL 150 is a better optical performer at aperture 8, but (slightly) worse at 22 to the SA 165.
More important, the 150 has clearly more light-falloff compared to the 165, at 22 in the extreme image-border 20% to 30%.
I remember, the Schneider folks at the Photokina around 2000 told me, the advantage of the SSXL is the much smaller size and the simpler and cost reduced manufacturing, therefore they will discontinue the bigger SA 165 and 210 sooner or later. So they did.
But they also told me, that the 150 and all the SSXL are not recommended to use without centerfilter. the SAngulons lightfallof at 22 is not too critical.

happy holidays
Rainer

[r.e.]

@rawitz/Rainer also made the post above in another thread. I think that it's useful to paste @Bernice Louie's response in that thread:

Yes indeediee. Schneider phased in the 150mm SSXL to replace the 165mm f8 SA in time.

Back in the 8x10 film days, the 155mm Grandagon was the "go to" very wide angle for 8x10. Needed a center filter for color transparencies to correct for light fall off. In time the 8x10 sheet film stopped. This turned the 155mm Grandagon into a medium wide for 5x7, center filter not really needed. Keep in mind the 155mm Grandagaon is HUGE and about the same size as the 165mm f8 SA.

It was the later 1990's when Schneider announced the SSXL aspheric wide angle lenses. Decided to go for the 110mm SSXL and 150mm SSXL as a pre-order promo. Nearly a year passed before delivery. Adding to this deal, Schneider did a trade in your old view camera lens for new discount, any view camera lens was eligible for this discount. This further sweetened the deal. It was the 110mm SSXL that arrived first, good lens on 5x7, does NOT cover 8x10 and has significant light fall off. Yet, text on the web-internet continues to float the fantasy the 110mm SSXL covers 8x10 and .... This simply NOT true as the optical performance image circle dies before properly covering 8x10 and the light fall off is BAD.

The 150mm SSXL got pressed into medium wide duty for 5x7, center filter not really needed and it was about half the size of the 155mm Grandagon.

Being one of those who does not press view camera lenses past f32 and often not past f22, both SSXLs worked very good. Based on decades of experience with these two copies, Optical performance is good at f8 to f22, there after the performance begins to drop off.

In recent years, the 110mm SSXL got parked being replaced by a 115mm Grandagon or 105mm Fujinon. The 150mm SSXL still serves for medium wide 5x7 as needed, but for lug around portability the 165mm f6.8 Angulon works good enough.

Regardless of what folks say about the SSXLs, they NEED a center filter if the light fall off problem is to be corrected and the image goals demand this.

Link to Bernice's post in the other thread: https://www.largeformatphotography.i...=1#post1627053