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Thread: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

  1. #61
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

    The biggest problem with distance resolution is generally the atmosphere itself, along with heat waves. I rarely get better resolution with the 8x10 than with my P67 with a top-end tele. But when it comes to movements, with extreme foreground to infinity detail, well, that's a different story. The longest lens I use for 8x10 is a 600 Fuji C. Longer perspectives are easier to achieve with my Sinar 4x5 monorails instead.

  2. #62

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    Re: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

    Still dealing with a 1200mm lens focal lenght with all the atmospheric issues that comes with uber long focal lenght lenses about infinity focus. Atmospheric haze, particles, dust and plenty more will be nicely compressed lots causing a notable redution of "shaprness".. Add to this, proper camera support and stability becomes a uber issue..

    It is why those white barreled small format digital or 35mm roll film often produces better images than similar on sheet film.

    Exception being stuff like adaptive optics where the optics bend, twist and more to compensate for atmospheric issues..


    Or why sheet film lenses stop at about 600/700mm.
    Bernice

  3. #63

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    Re: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

    Come on folks,
    if Feininger and Wolf had read all your doubts and complaints, we perhaps never could see their exceptional pictures.
    And I saw Wolf NYC pics in the opening exhibition in the 80th in 1,80m printsize (the largest size of analog enlarging), and no chance for me with my RZ67 Prof-Camera and any white, black or brown lens to keep up with it.

    regards
    Rainer

  4. #64

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    Re: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

    Yea, but the air does weird stuff at magnification!!! Spend some time on a telescope eyepiece to find the rare times of still, stable air where it only might be steady for moments a month in some locales (if at all)... Shooting even the "best" lens on demand gives wildly different results...

    I shoot a lot of long lens (on different formats) and spent much time on a telescope eyepiece... It can look a lot like being underwater waiting for the waters to run still, and even when the target defines, the air can cause the object to bounce around all over the FOV ( for example, follow the Saturn bouncing ball) or like one slighty poor viewing night, watching the surface of the moon going erupting, quaking, melting, looking like the alien invasion was starting!!! Was it the glass of wine in hand??? Nah, it was the air... Kooool to watch these distortions, but good I wasn't exposing anything... And this was night air, not day air with heat convections rising/boiling... One strange day thing I watched through binoculars once was standing on Sandy Hook looking at the NYC skyline through the distant haze where it appeared normal/upright when in a blink of an eye it inverted upside down and kept "flipping"!!!

    Most tele optical systems can be quite good (with maybe some "artifacts" that can appear only under certain conditions) but with plenty of resolution, but with all that "liquid" air moving around, one really needs to learn to "forecast" under what conditions might be a candidate for imaging distant views... Shooting details from across the street, distant tree with bird etc can be routinely managed, but very rare to be able to utilize all that resolution top optics are capable of...

    Steve K

  5. #65

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    Re: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

    Much has changed since the time of Feininger and Wolf, photographic materials, optics and plenty more are no longer the same. Having been down this long telephoto sheet film road more than once before with the Tele Nikkor up to the 1200mm, APO process lenses up to 47 1/2" (1206mm) APO artar on 4x5, 5x7, 8x10.. never again. The vast problems with any view camera set up is more hassle and frought with problems than the value in the results. 760mm / 30" APO ronar is currently the longest focal lenght for any of the sheet film cameras, using this is Meh and great hassle. Camera set up, camera stability, if used outdoors, wind and related vibration is a very serious issue to contend with ... and two tripods are not always enough to keep this very real and very serious problem in check..

    Tele optics has evolved lots since the time-era of Feininger and Wolf, The modern Canon EF white barrel lenses trounces the sinilar sheet film camera optic in every way. They are remarkable in their optical performace due to Fluorite crystal elements, low dispersion glass and coupled with image stabilization allows hand held images with up to 1/8000 second shutter speeds.. add to all this portable, mobile and reasonable to lug around. This is the reality of uber long focal lenght image making or why using the proper tool for a given need can and does make a very real differnce.

    HUGE analog prints were quite common back in the day. There were a number of photo labs that made piles of them daily back in the day. Robert Cameron known for his aerial images of cities and land scapes used a Pentax 67 with Pentax lenses on a gyro stabilizer for the majority of his aerial images. Some of Cameron's images were printed to about 10 feet (3048mm) x 12 feet ( 3657mm).. as part of an exhibit.
    https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...oto/1321560420

    https://www.presidio.gov/presidio-tr...s-opens-may-18

    Details in these pritns would surprise any set of eyes..

    Don't neg on the RZ as the optics and performace if this camera system could and is a LOT better than suspected.. Keep in mind, bigger is not always better as it is most always a specific set of trade offs.

    These HUGE color prints were made by creating a 8x10 internagative from the orginal 6x7cm film, then using the 8x10 internegative to create the HUGE color print. Much the same can be done using 35mm film.



    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by rawitz View Post
    Come on folks,
    if Feininger and Wolf had read all your doubts and complaints, we perhaps never could see their exceptional pictures.
    And I saw Wolf NYC pics in the opening exhibition in the 80th in 1,80m printsize (the largest size of analog enlarging), and no chance for me with my RZ67 Prof-Camera and any white, black or brown lens to keep up with it.

    regards
    Rainer

  6. #66
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

    The usual, "If so and so did it that way, it must be the best way". Well, maybe Feininger and Wolf could have done it a lot easier and even better today a different manner. I like working with big negs, and lean toward long lenses even in 8x10 photography. Size matters. But there is a limiting factor dependent upon atmosphere. There are also logistical issues.

    But when the air is clear and calm, a reasonably large print made from large format film and an excellent long lens is absolutely going to blow away any MF enlargement of comparable size.
    I printed one a few weeks ago involving a Fuji 600C lens and 8x10 160VC film (not as sharp as the Ektar film I now use), and the distant detail looking from a high vantage point in the desert twenty and thirty miles away is so crisp early in the morning you'd need a loupe to detect it all, even in a 30X40 inch print. But that's not why I took it, but for the subtle hue relationships seen from there. Of course, I might miss the lighting entirely by choosing big gear. That's why I also own a superb 300 tele for my Pentax 6x7; it significantly improves the "bagged it" rate, and is obviously also far less expensive to shoot.

  7. #67

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    Re: Schneider APO-Tele Xenar HM 800 f/12?

    For anyone serious about long lens work, a highly desirable addition would be a decent spotting scope... It would need a sturdy enough tripod of it's own, and a decent zoom eyepiece is helpful... One can learn by seeing how the air changes during the day, and one can even watch for when there is an interval between air movements where the subject image is steady and clearer... The zoom or interchangeable eyepieces can be roughly calculated to match the FL's you want to use, and you quickly find out how long of an FL you can get away using under the conditions (before image breaks up)...

    Many years ago, was shooting the product line of Kowa Optical spotting scopes, and had use of a loaner for a couple of weeks... Tested it every day at different times of daylight hours and night, and was eye opening to the differences in terrestrial atmosphere rendering... Early morning air was more steady until the sun started warming the ground enough to start heatwaves rising and rocking details around, image started moving enough to splash water like, to complete blur sometimes... Later in the day could be (surreal) interesting as taller objects (buildings etc) could be steady, but a ground inversion layer could be a wild hallucination of twisting/moving distortions!!! ( Lotsa strange "mirage" type activity...) It's tempting to want to shoot video of very long lens work in the heat of the city of these phenomena happenings!!!

    Steve K

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