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Thread: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

  1. #41

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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    You're wrong about inkjet vs laser. Laser isn't going to make it in the end; it's all going to be inkjet, most likely pigment based. About markups...toner has massive markup so probably has RA4 paper although I doubt it is as attractive as ink. For now, the only firm we get RA4 paper from is Fuji. Guess who's one of the few major players in industrial inks and print heads? That's right. Fuji... The moment RA4 becomes less attractive to them, they'll push it out and continue with the other horse.

    You focus on the highest-end quality part of the market, but the other 99.95% is where the money's being made. They mostly think those measly blacks are plenty black enough.

    Anyway, I don't have to convince you. I know what I saw in the industry, and the future of color printing had no silver in it at all.

  2. #42
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    Inkjet does NOT = pigment printing!! Very few actual pigments can fit through those tiny nozzles. Dyes are necessarily involved as well, especially in the form of "lakes" (derived from the term "lac), which are dyed inert particles, analogous to eggplant taking on various flavors. It's either misleading marketing hype or downright false advertising to equate inkjet printing to real pigment prints; but is a commonly used expression to convey a false sense of security in the permanence of those colorants, which are unequal in that respect. In other words, color shifts over time are inevitable.

    But yeah, given the huge R&D investment in inkjet and related dye printers, I think we've approached a plateau where "good enough" will reign for awhile. There are still all kinds of patents out there which will probably never see the light of day. But chromogenic printing has now gone beyond its plateau season and distinctly improved. Did you miss the fact that Fuji has also entered the laser printer era, and can bundle the whole system together. So they've got a vested interest in that too, along with the high volumes of paper and RA4 chem those commercial systems demand.

    I probably won't be around long enough - perhaps - but I think the odds are, that current inkjet tech is going to go obsolete sooner than relatively mature chemical-based printing. And the reason is that something else, no doubt digital, will be such an improvement, that current inkjet tech will seem fuddy-duddy by comparison. A basic optical enlarger, however, might be fully functional for another hundred years, just like view camera will be. You never know. Turtles and crocodiles were around before all the glitzy big dinosaurs, and are still around. Some designs just make sense. One never knows. Another world war could end it all. Then we go back to cave painting, or at least painting the walls inside bomb shelters, hoping some species less reckless than us will discover and appreciate our art someday.
    Last edited by Drew Wiley; 18-Jul-2022 at 16:54.

  3. #43

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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    Drew, not all inkjet is dye based. I can't say what the percentage of pigment inkjet is at this point, but I expect it has already taken over dye by a mile, especially if you keep in mind that just about anything is being inkjet printer these days, from bathroom tiles to floorboards, sofa cushions, bedsheets, wallpaper, milk cartons...and yes, also booksz posters and large transparencies. Many of these applications require light-fastness that dyes just don't give, even in lowly applications far removed from graphic arts. I'm not sure where you got the notion that pigments would be too big to jet; maybe that was the case 2 decades ago. Pigment dispersions (again, Fuji is a big one here but by far not the only) have come a long way and so has piezo technology. Yes, dyes may be added to pigments to solve e.g. the problems you note with inkjet black which always fails to be neutral. I don't think this happens to the same extent with C, M and Y though and I wonder how common it is even with black today. I really think this picture is far bigger than what you're aware of; RA4 is a couple of applications, but inkjet is an entire universe. It's also highly unlikely to be taken over by clumsy toner-based. I'm going to leave at at this as some things aren't mine to share with the general public. My distinct impression (let's out it that way) is that inkjet has a substantial future ahead of it and part of that future is going to come at the cost of laser, RA4 and offset printing, evidently in a range of market segments. If you argue that for very high end, large-format graphic arts RA4 will hold ground relatively long, then you may be right, although I'm not even so sure of that anymore today than I once might have been. Will you love to see the demise of RA4? Well, it would be nice to have you around for a long time still, Drew.

  4. #44
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    Koraks - you're not getting it. There are dye printers, and there are ink printers; but those inks themselves, used in inkjet printers per se, are not necessarily all pigments. Dyes and lakes are equally involved. There are all kinds of technical limitations preventing them all being pigments. Where do I get that notion? First, just look up the patents and ingredients behind those colorants. Second, I've been closely following the development of this technology in the industrial sector before it ever became a photographic application. Third, due to my career connections, I was frequently in touch with leading international figures trying to find the holy grail of what I'll term nano pigments. And a suitable true process set doesn't even exists at this state of technology. I've personally dealt with the two finest pigment grinding industries on earth fro many years, learned all kinds of analogous issues right from the start which are still a real factor in inkjet printing itself. You're arguing with the wrong guy. Doesn't matter; all this is very very well known in the industry itself.

    Inkjet obviously doesn't employ any kind of CMYK process set, but is entirely patterned after industrial pigment programmable systems whereby complex blends of ingredients can be matched to 4-axis analytic geometry color mapping. It's really remarkable in how far its come along and become available to almost anyone in some practical form. But color per se is a huge industry of its own going well beyond the scope of that. I'd even color inkjet printing a minor category of the bigger whole. All kinds of R&D and trend forecasting is constantly going on. And part of that is the hunt for entirely new kinds of colorants which solve some of these inherent problems.

    So please don't keep perpetuating the sheer myth and mis-identification of inkjet printing with "pigment prints". They're not. That is a simple fact known by everyone who has done a bit of real homework.

  5. #45

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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    You're arguing with the wrong guy.
    This is certainly true, but perhaps not for the reason you meant. That's OK; in your particular way you can be inspiring sometimes!

  6. #46
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    I was a color specialist, Koraks. And like I said, inkjet printing is just a spinoff of something of much larger industrial scale. The really big money and R&D incentive is elsewhere. And you'd be amazed at how many people are trying to get a piece of the action by grasping at the shorter straw. Myriads of patents are out there which are never going to see the light of day because, just like I already hinted, photo inkjet printing has reached a semi-plateau where the priority is now to recoup their R&D investment and turn a real profit. That's not the case with, say, automotive or marine coatings, where intense interest in developing new actual nano-pigments exists, but alas, where there is no need for actual process colors. And everyone knows that there is still no way to get around organic dyes in certain colorant categories, at least on a practical level. If you happen to be PopeLeo X and are willing to loot all of Germany and take out a second mortgage on the Vatican, well, then maybe you can afford to supply vivid non-organic reds and blues to Michelangelo; but those pigments would be rare, horrendously expensive, somewhat or distinctly toxic, and never fit through tiny inkjet nozzles anyway.

    But if you know the answer, while major corporations with massive R&D infrastructure, who have been at it for over a century, do not, then I assume you are posting your own remarks from aboard your 200 ft yacht.

  7. #47

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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    Drew, point is, you seem to believe that the arguments you make for inkjet being technically inferior to RA4 will somehow save the latter. I doubt that, even if you're right, which I'm fully willing to accept. Mind you, I never made a case for inkjet being technically or artistically superior to RA4. I just don't think that's the set of parameters that's going to matter the most at the end of the line. But - only time will tell. Neither I from my 200ft yacht nor you from your 400ft one know exactly which technology will supply which market segment at any particular moment in time.

    PS: To be honest, the marine world never appealed that much to me, so no yacht here.

  8. #48
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    No, I don't even own a rowboat. But I did consult on the world's biggest most-expensive yachts as far as certain materials, nano-pigment finishes, and techniques were involved. Even supplied certain critical machinery. Mainly surface issues (certainly not structural design or actual engineering). Some of the workmen became lifetime friends. But you are right in terms or all this being profit driven. It's even the same reason only perhaps three companies in the world still make a decent pair of pliers that don't break or go dull in a few weeks; there's far more money to be made producing junk versions which need to be repeatedly replaced. Consumer electronics and its software also are designed around rather short lifespans. Resource intensive, but everyone wants the latest and greatest. I should say, however, that true process nano-pigments are being sought, because that would revolutionize the printing trade and photographic printing itself; but it's not your inkjet companies behind that. No one has the magic wand yet; but if they do eventually get there, most of the previous inkjet industry will be doomed. ... Or they might just buy up the patents themselves if they can, and table them, so that nobody has access to it. That kind of thing happens a lot too.

  9. #49
    bob carnie's Avatar
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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    This argument regarding laser printing and inkjet printing is of interest to me, spoiler alert. I own a lambda which is capable of RA4 printing, I own two Inkjet machines that I work with daily, but in the last 9 years
    have been researching digital negatives to Pt Pd, digital negs to Gum Bichromate over Palladium, digital negatives to Silver Print. It has been a long road and at my stage of life I am at a bit of a crossroads.

    We have been doing more silvers lately via inkjet negs to any silver paper, in fact this is one of the fastest growing services of the last three years. I now teach full colour gum printing and it too is remarkable that
    we are very busy with this. ( all of my personal work is done this way)
    I have approx. 2000 sq. ft of work space in a long narrow formation, which means my lambda takes up a good percentage of the printing workspace , I also frame and have a small gallery so every sq ft is precious.

    Pre Covid I was using the Lambda only for direct silver prints, mainly for one Magnum Photographer and people who like this style of print.. Neutral BW Silver Gelatin.

    Since Covid I have not turned on the Lambda and am now debating primarily with my self the future of this unit and my workflow.

    I have done extensive tests on this machine to compare direct silver negatives off the lambda vs direct inkjet negatives off the Epson. There are distinct Pros and Cons
    of each method.

    Cons -Lambda Negs and Prints - very hard to get material, need technical support which is not cheap, big platform of space in a large expensive city, Slow to make and requires immense attention to detail, quite expensive,
    and quite smelly.
    Cons - Inkjet Negatives - very flimsy, only last for a few sessions of printing, not archivable ,

    Pros- -Lambda Negs and Prints - ability to work from digital files and cameras, very high resolution , very stable and historically much like large format negs, Incredible detail when making prints
    Pros - Inkjet Negs and Prints - ability to work from digital files and cameras, excellent resolution , easy to work with much like large format negs, with Pt Pd and matt papers distinctly like silver


    I moved to inkjet over RA4 printing over 8 years ago , mainly because the market was shrinking, the machine smelled , technicians on this old tech were all retiring and I am not a technician. Frankly
    I love RA4 but I also love Inkjet, the material availability , technicians, and inks made the decision an easy one.

    I do not harbour any loyalty to C prints, In my career I believe I have made over 100,000 c print either via enlarger or Lambda. The dye coupler technology is amazing but highly prone to fading and
    the first half of my career is now a cyan mess.
    I can not say that my inkjet's will last any longer, I am not sure anyone here can answer that question, time will tell- though I must say working with pigment paste and also working with two different print head types (Canon and Epson) I feel that pure pigment or crushed stone would have a hard time getting through the system.

    To this point I moved the bulk of my colour work to Blue Wool Scale 8 pigments saturated in gum which is hardened by Sunlight (UV) and washed out with water. - This is all done
    by hand and quite exhilarating, in fact I highly encourage this method of working to any artist who likes making prints.

    I have decided for me this is the way to go. If Fuji or another player comes up with a RA4 process that is more advanced regarding permanence then I will be all ears, I am still on the fence
    whether to keep the Lambda or scrap it.

  10. #50

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    Re: RA-4/color darkroom printing in 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by bob carnie View Post
    I do not harbour any loyalty to C prints, In my career I believe I have made over 100,000 c print either via enlarger or Lambda. The dye coupler technology is amazing but highly prone to fading and
    the first half of my career is now a cyan mess.
    I can not say that my inkjet's will last any longer, I am not sure anyone here can answer that question, time will tell- though I must say working with pigment paste and also working with two different print head types (Canon and Epson) I feel that pure pigment or crushed stone would have a hard time getting through the system.

    To this point I moved the bulk of my colour work to Blue Wool Scale 8 pigments saturated in gum which is hardened by Sunlight (UV) and washed out with water. - This is all done
    by hand and quite exhilarating, in fact I highly encourage this method of working to any artist who likes making prints.
    Bob, you might be surprised to learn that the pigments used in inkjet may overlap significantly with the kind of pigments that you're using for gum bichromate. Evidently I don't know which pigments you're using specifically, but let me give an example: PB15:3 is a popular choice for Cyan regardless of (pigment) process. Calvin Grier uses it for gum and color carbon; I'm using it for my feeble attempts at color carbon presently myself. And guess what? It's the go-to cyan pigment of the inkjet industry. Same story with quinacridone magenta, PR122. With yellow, there's a bit more choice, but again you end up with the same kind of options, such as the family of benzimidazolone yellows (PY154 for instance).

    Keep in mind that pigments don't equate 'crushed rocks'. Only very few people actually work with naturally occurring pigments in printing processes. The vast majority of pigment use, also in fine art printing (painting may be different) consists of synthetic pigments. The degree of milling, i.e. particle size, of course does play a role in dispersal stability and as a result as a cause of nozzle clogging etc. in printers - or sedimentation in carbon glop as it outgasses over a period of an hour or more.

    Long story short - there's not necessarily a reason to be more concerned about inkjet pigment stability than about gum bichromate pigment stability. Of course, it all depends on the specific pigments used and environmental conditions. In your position, I'd be in touch (if you aren't already) with the ink supplier and try to obtain good information about the actual pigments used in the inks you consume. You're not the average home or office users and you have valid reasons to know a couple of things that they shield off from other parties. Probably not much luck at Epson, but I bet businesses like InkjetMall would be willing to have a chat and share their views on pigment selection and its myriad ins and outs.

    PS: I have no hopes for an improved, more archival RA4 dye set. I don't think anyone is putting in the R&D to make this happen. While current volumes in RA4 consumables may still be significant, my argument remains that other processes will take over from RA4 for very much the same reasons you abandoned it. Firms like Fuji are perfectly aware of this and I'd be highly surprised if they put in any more effort than that needed to milk out the business as it is.

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