Sinar F2 Vs Sinar Norma (4x5)

[Bernice Loui]

Will put this up as a separate post as this is worthy discussion.

Began with a Pelican 1510 roller:
https://www.pelican.com/us/en/produc...protector/1510


Bernice

Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.

[Bernice Loui]

Will put this up as a separate post as this is worthy discussion.

Began with a Pelican 1510 roller:
https://www.pelican.com/us/en/produc...protector/1510


Bernice

Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Do not purchase there. ~Seller Profit Center Warning~

The replacement levels are 7mm diameter x 16mm long. Available from Geier and Bluhm as part# 3-0507 in NYC for $1.39 USD each:
https://www.geier-bluhm.com/products...-vials/3-0507/

Attachment 217983


Amazon, for $1.00 each, 10pc for 10 USD.
https://www.amazon.com/Acrylic-Bubbl.../dp/B08CZD59RN

Do a web search as 7mm x 16mm round levels are an industry standard item.

To replace the level. Remove the two screws holding the level on the small plate. Put the dry and defective level into a small vise to hold the defective level,
push the holder plate with a light tap from a small hammer and punch on the surface away from the two mounting holes. The levels are glued on to the mounting plate. More often than not, the glue has lost it's grip over the decades and usually parts easy from the level.

Clean off the residual glue and plastic bits with a file or scraper. It is possible to clean off the white paint on the opposite side of the level mounting plate for re-paint or easier to more white paint as touch up or easier still is to leave it alone (lowest damage risk). Add a tiny amount of cyanoacrylate adhesive aka "super glue" to the level mount plate, press on the new level, done.


Bernice

Thanks for that Bernice! I just ordered thirty for myself.

[Bernice Loui]

Rick shared his Sinar story, here another Sinar story..

Decades ago during the early 1980's, got curious about this view camera stuff after using 35mm (Alpa then Canon) and Hasselblad. Foto friend who has been doing view camera for decades before my curiosity about view camera made a note about this. Some time passed before a phone call happened. A Sinar system appeared in the local news paper want-ads. It was a Sinar F with 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon, 210mm Sironar N, 190mm Wide Field Ektar, film holders, Sinar reflex viewer with fresnel all in a fiber board case for $1200 early 1980's USD (about $3600 USD today). Ouch on the $, yet the insistence to make this purchase was stiff. We made contact with the seller, made the deal. Took the Sinar system home knowing absolutely ZERO about the camera, how to use it or anything at all related to view camera.. That Sinar was like an alien mechanical device. If not for one to one tutoring and mentoring and LOTs of 4x5 film burned-wasted and more, none of this view camera stuff would have been today. As time passed, that Sinar F became a well know friend and image maker buddy. It never failed to produce and work as demanded. In time the lenses were rotated around in various ways. The reflex viewer/fresnel went away being replaced by a traditional dark cloth and loupe magnifier (another story of how many of these were tried then given up on until the current 7x loupe).

What was never appreciated early on, how capable that Sinar F was and how once view camera movements are understood and best to apply them on a camera that does precisely what is needed with no significant hesitation or effort.

Eventually, did view camera time with working photographers in their studio. They all had Sinar P with all the fixings on a BIG studio stand and many KW/seconds of studio strobe power and what appeared as an endless variety of light modifiers. This is where lighting technique, the importance of a view camera that stays put and does what is demanded from it with no complains was grown. We burned color transparency film by the case, Polaroid proof pulls filled the circular file, trips to The New Lab was break time and time to hang out with other Foto folks. Learned LOTs during those years of doing this.

All this afforded the privilege of being able to try out various other cameras from Linhof, Arca Swiss, Toyo, Cambo, and others.. Always came back to Sinar for what it did so well and with such ease. Field folders were sort of ok if camera movements and precision-accuracy are not really needed and strict limitations of what lenses can be used on camera is acceptable. Of all the field folders used-tried during that time the one that stuck was the Canham DLC, more monorail like with enough stability, precision-accuracy and lens capability than other similar field folders. Even spent time on the phone with Keith Canham congratulating him on such a nice field folder camera design and quality of construction.

In time, did other kinds of view camera stuff from landscapes, architectural interior and exterior (lighting interiors with many KW/sec of strobe power was _!_!_!_ then try balancing color with the ambient lighting was another _!_!_!_!_ ) and portraits... So yes, I've done LOTs of view camera Photography. It is likely due to this history and expectations-demands made on any view camera which strongly biased me towards a Sinar monorail and system as lesser capable view cameras become not tolerable. Knowing what lens-camera MUST do and how they must perform together imposes very strict requirements and demands on any view camera to be used.

About 2000, life changed and this Foto stuff took a distant back seat. Kept all that Sinar and other Foto stuff. About 2005-8, the used market was flooded with view camera stuff due to the transition to digital. This was the time when a LOT of Sinar stuff and more was purchased at essentially give-away prices. This was about the time when the first Norma happened. Prior to this life was always a Sinar F/F2 or Sinar P/P2. The design and quality of construction of the Norma was remarkable. Best of all the Norma easily integrated into all the other Sinar bits with no signifiant issues. About 2008 was the year of me joining LFF...



Bernice

I align myself fully with Bernice’s comments.

The first camera I used with a 90mm lens of enough coverage to allow movements was a Cambo SC (in Calumet trim). I needed a recessed lens board and a bag bellows, and it was inconvenient to use. But it worked, and this was back when a Sinar was a fantasy camera for me. A 65mm lens is less workable, but I didn’t have a 65mm lens capable of movements (a 65/5.6 Super Angulon—not the f/8 version which barely covers 4x5) until I had a camera that could mount it reasonably for use in the real world.

And that was a Sinar F. No recessed lens boards required. I have fat fingers, and I hate recessed lens boards with some passion.

The real choice here is monorail or folder? That depends on the use case. The only advantage a folder has is portability (in terms of stored compactness, and to a lesser extent in terms of weight). If I was backpacking with a camera, I’d prefer a folding field camera and would simply limit my lenses and composition possibilities to what worked.

For interiors, though, the constraints are external and the equipment has to have the features that serve within those constraints. A good modular monorail is that camera.

The Norma was the first practical monorail. If bought for cheap, a Norma will require some restoration but it’s worth the effort. (Restoring some cameras will have you chasing your tail and wondering when it will end.)

But a later Sinar will also function beautifully and is probably the best balance between first-rate mechanics and price. And they are still restorable and worth the effort. Arca and Linhof are in the same category, but without the wide availability of inexpensive used bits that all interchange, and they are more expensive to begin with because of their boutique status.

I am biased—I own an F/F2 and a P. My F2 is a mashup of several cameras bought at junk prices and assembled into a camera that had my preferred features. I prefer the F back, because it’s thinner in that it doesn’t have the slot for the meter probe. But I prefer the F2 front that separates lateral shift and swing locking levers.

My F lives in the Sinar Expert flight-style case to which I added luggage wheels and a handle. I pulled it behind me across Nantucket with its wavy brick streets and crowds. It worked in that scenario. But it’s no backpacking camera. It could be made much more compact, however.

My P lives in its original fiberboard Expert case, and I stay closer to the car with it.

For architectural interiors, I would require easy use of a 65mm lens, bag bellows that allow easy shifting with a 65mm lens (for Sinar, that’s the Wide Angle Bellows 2), and access to lens controls and visibility of settings in dim conditions (read: that 65mm lens on a flat lens board).

Using a rollfilm format imposes similar requirements on the use of shorter lenses. I have used my F with a 6x12 back and a 47mm Super Angulon—surely a combination few 4x5 field folders could support.

Rick “there is no single best camera for every use case” Denney

[Drew Wiley]

A couple of random comments. All my Norma levels are in fine shape. I never pay attention to them, even in architectural shots. Subject planes are aligned visually in relation to the ground glass image itself. Or if I need to level, a pendulum-style angle finder works better than any level.

I don't see any sense in big cases including Pelican or Sinar which end up weighing as much or more than the camera itself. That seems like an impractical arcane holdover from past days. There are numerous prior threads on more ergonomic ways to transport and carry monorails safely. My routine backpack which is capable of safely carrying over 100 lbs of gear weighs less than four pounds itself. But now over 70, I'm not in a mood to prove that to anyone; been there, done that, over several decades. Now I put about half that weight in it. I can pull a fully assembled Norma monorail replete with 18 inch rail right out of the top compartment.

I don't get the idea of a heavy revolving back - just more strain on the overall rigidity. Maybe on a massively supported studio Sinar P, but not in the field with an F or Norma. The regular VH reversible Graflok back does it all.

[sharktooth]

I think this thread has lost sight of the original poster's intent, and has devolved into a discussion of the merits of the Sinar, rather than providing practical advice to a new large format user. This is a disservice to the original poster, and to others new to large format.

The original poster is looking to buy his "FIRST" large format camera. This implies that he has no experience with large format cameras and the practical concerns and pitfalls. He's clearly researched the specifications of different large format cameras, and has some reasonable idea of what he wants to do photographically. This is all well and good, but there are no new 4x5 Sinars available today, so it's not like you're going to be able to go on the internet tomorrow and get a perfectly working Sinar with the click of a button. You can find "classic" used Sinars in all kinds of condition, poorly described, and from shady and/or unknowledgeable sellers. It's every bit as difficult as buying a classic car. You really have to know what to look for and how to discern the rare gems from the junk. There are gems out there, but it may take a while to find them, and there are always risks.

Here are some facts:
The Sinar Norma was introduced in 1948 and probably ended around 1970 when the Sinar P was introduced. That means a Sinar Norma is probably at least 50 to 60 years old.
The Sinar f2 was introduced in 1986 and I'm guessing very few were sold after the early 2000's. That means a Sinar f2 is probably at least 20 to 30 years old.
No Sinars were ever cheap. They were purchased by working professionals in order to make money. They were not purchased as collectors items or as shelf queens. This means that they will almost certainly have been used a lot. They will have some wear and tear, but they were made well and could still work well IF they were properly maintained and not abused.
Sinar appears to be out of the 4x5 film camera market completely now. The Swiss site only shows medium format digital cameras, and there's no mention of any service parts or service for any 4x5 film cameras.
B&H Photo (probably the largest photo retailer in the world) doesn't show any Sinar products on their web site now.

Bellows:
The biggest problem with older view cameras is usually the bellows. If the bellows is bad you can't take pictures. Let me correct that, you can take pictures, but light leaks may cause problems that are intermittent, and may be misdiagnosed as lens problems or other camera issues by the inexperience user. The bad news is that no bellows will last forever. They are a wear item on every view camera, and will almost certainly need to be replaced or repaired. Bellows are like car tires, they're absolutely essential, but they only last so long. Twenty years is a very long time for a camera bellows. I've got a couple of Sinar bellows that look very nice cosmetically, but they're full of pinholes in the corners. This is not unusual, and should be expected. Nobody would say it's O.K. to drive on twenty year old car tires either. It's just a fact of life.
O.K., so you bought your Sinar and the bellows are bad, that's no big deal if you can go and buy a new bellows. Things aren't so easy any more. There are no new Sinar bellows available as far as I'm aware. You could go on eBay and buy another used one that is just as bad, or worse, than the one you have. If you'd bought a Linhof Kardan, you could buy a new bellows for that from B&H for $846.99. That's probably more than what people would be willing to pay for a used 4x5 camera. The B&H catalogue from 1998 had Sinar 4x5 bellows listed for $259. The current price of the Linhof bellows is about double what it was in 1998, so if a Sinar bellows is still available new today it's probably around $500. Definitely not chicken feed. There are third party options available for bellows, but there's no ready made solution. You either send your old bellows out to have the new bellows fitted to the old frames, or you buy a bellows and fit it to the old frames yourself. There is still time, money, and significant hassle involved.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to get an older classic view camera, but it's almost certainly not going to be a fast or easy path. I would like to get a Sinar Norma too, but I'd like to see it and test it out in person, and check the bellows for light leaks and make sure everything functions properly. I'd also like it to be at a reasonable price. The likelihood of that happening anytime soon is very low, and I've been on the lookout for years. That's fine if you're willing to wait for the right camera at the right price, but I'm guessing that someone looking for their first camera wants to get started right away. In that case, as I stated in an earlier post, you should go for something available new today, or buy something used from a reliable and trusted source. In either case it may not be the perfect choice, but at least you'll get started off on the right foot, and can then start looking for that elusive dream camera for as long as it takes.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Kumar Norma 2 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Kumar Norma 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Here's some direct timely experience on Normas. Yesterday this arrived on my front step from a dealer in Japan. I bought what you see here for $250 including shipping. This camera was on APUG a week ago so I inquired. This morning it took me some fun time to check all the controls, and I decided it needed a bath. Most Normas are filthy especially in all the cracks and corners so this is something anybody can do themselves. Go to the Auto Parts store, buy some Electronic Contact Cleaner, shop towels, and Moly EP grease. A dirty old toothbrush, some nitrile gloves, and that's about it. Buy the Norma instruction manual, instructions for periodic service are there. Use outside or proper ventilation.
Strip the camera down to the component parts, lay them on a shop towel, and blast 'em with the contact cleaner, which cleans away all the crap. Scrub with toothbrush with buff with shop towel. Amazing how dirty some times. Finally lay on with toothbrush on the threaded parts, the Moly EP lube. Only a light emulsion coating, then reassemble.

I just finished all of this. My new camera from Kumar is nice and ready to go, only issues with this one are two broken bubble levels, and the rear standard ball detent in the tilt mechanism isn't detenting. These are not major major issues and IMO the camera is in great condition. I don't do shutters, ball detents, focus helicals, etc. I leave that for later, right now this camera dosen't need it. The Micro Drive mechanism for the focus is very smooth and not reason to mess with it at this point.

New Sinar Norma era Bellows are available from Keith at Custom Bellows. Keith once told me they made all the bellows for Sinar Norma, in fact they still have the original production drawings. Anybody who says they are too expensive (they are not) or slow and painful (they are not) is likely not really all that familiar with them. They are the greatest! How many brand new things can you buy for Sinar Norma? Not many.

Anyway not bad for $250 delivered IMO. This is the third one I have found recently for around this price.

Good Luck and if it's what you really want go for it!

[Peter De Smidt]

Great job, Daniel. I'd love to pick one up.

[rdenney]

I’d rather have a 40-year-old Sinar for a few hundred dollars than a brand new field folder for $1000 or more, if my goal was to shoot interiors with short lenses.

By the way, I paid $300 for my P Expert Kit at a quality camera store. Had I needed it, I’m sure they could have showed me the basics. But I had the manual on my iPhone with five minutes of googling. And this forum can fill in any blanks.

And a monorail makes it much easier to understand movements, given that they are usually independent.

A beginner to large format may, of course, not be a beginner to working on mechanical things. A Sinar is not that difficult to work on compared to lots of hobbies that require mechanical skills.

So, a Sinar for a beginner is not bad advice at all. 50 years ago, the advice would have been a Calumet CC-400 strictly based on price. The beginner of today has it much better.

Rick “who has purchased four or five Sinar bellows and only one—a $5 eBay special bought to be used as a compendium shade—had light leaks” Denney

[Daniel Unkefer]

Brand New Sinar Norma Tapered Bellows 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Brand New Sinar Norma Tapered Bellows 2 by Nokton48, on Flickr

I would not buy new bellows from anybody but Keith at Camera Bellows in the UK. Such nice great people!