Sinar F2 Vs Sinar Norma (4x5)

[Times2]

Hi,

In Which-field-camera-for-usage-with-90mm-lens I asked about which 4x5 camera should I buy as my first camera and Sinar F2 and Sinar Norma ended up as winners (cheap, beginner-friendly, lots of movements).

As I found out that Sinar F2 is more modern I thought it will be an easy cut, in terms of deciding which to buy. But upon further reading about Norma, I'm somewhat torn between the two.
It seems that Norma is more sturdy and almost equal to F2 when it comes to weight but on the other side it is older and occurs more rarely on eBay.
As I'm planning on using 6x7 back, I'm not sure if there will be a problem with attaching one to Norma.

If it matters, cameras I'm looking are Norma and F2

If you have experience with one or both cameras please share with me
Any advice is very much appreciated!

P.S: I'm aware of this thread Sinar F2 vs Norma 8x10 but as it is in regard to different format/size same conclusions may not apply

[neil poulsen]

I've had a lot of experience with both cameras, and I would go with the Sinar F2. Of course, there will be disagreement on this. Also, personal preference weighs into a decision like this. Different people have differing preferences.

The Norma is a "precision" camera. But, thay can be finicky. It' depends on the camera and how well it's been adjusted. It sure is an impressive looking camera, having been machined and all. But after making some customizations described in the link below, I enjoyed using and prefer the Sinar F. It just feels better to me.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/thread...camera.172997/

With respect to the above, I like having an F2 front standard that has independently controlled shift and swing.

But with either an F or a Norma, you have the advantage of a full featured camera system with many accessories.

[Luis-F-S]

I've had a lot of experience with both cameras, and I would go with the Sinar F2.

++1!!less complicated and a lot easier to find used.

[Bernice Loui]

Except the F, F+, F1, F2 4x5 rear standard has a bump together issues with the Horseman rotary roll film back. See post# 15.


Bernice

Originally Posted by neil poulsen, "I've had a lot of experience with both cameras, and I would go with the Sinar F2."

++1!!less complicated and a lot easier to find used.

[Greg]

Have been using Sinars since the mid 1970s. All around favorite has always been the Norma, but for inside studio work the P made efficient shooting just a bit easier. For a time had and used a 4x5 F in the field, but in the end I much preferred the Norma for its more solid feel. For me, anytime that I used a lens wider than a 120mm, the first thing that I did was to replace the normal bellows with a WA bellows. As to your mentioning "regard to different format/size same conclusions may not apply", I think your conclusion is dead on. The 8x10 Norma is a whole different camera to use. I actually preferred it to an 8x10 P. Acquiring a Norma in good working condition is the key. Replacement parts are out there, but one usually has to buy a working standard to get the part that you are looking for. Bubble levels are easy to acquire and replace. Beware of cheap rip offs that are of sub quality and not all that accurate... unfortunately you probably won't find that out until you have them in your hand - been there, done that. There are a few guides to fixing and/or overhauling Normas on the Internet. They are very much worth making hard copies of, and when using them making notes on their pages. Using bargain tools, like from Harbor Freight, is an invitation for breaking or messing up parts. Personally recommend Little Machine Shop and Micro Mark. I'm sure other forum members can add other places to get good quality tools from. Also personally prefer hand tools vs cordless tools. Good luck.

[sharktooth]

Your "first" 4x5 camera should be one that actually works properly. These esoteric discussions about the perfect classic camera are not very useful for practical purposes. Unless you're extremely lucky, an old camera is likely to be full of pinholes in the bellows, and will have some minor to major mechanical issues. If you know what to look for, and how to repair it, then fine and dandy. If not, you could be in for a very expensive and frustrating experience.

Sinars were extremely popular in their day, but that day has long gone. If you go to the B&H website and type in a search for Sinar, you'll get 10 items, all of them third party adapters. Good luck finding a new Sinar bellows. Sure, you can get a new bellows from England, or China, but you might have to put it on the frames yourself, or send the old frames to the supplier. Expect to pay at least $300, and wait a few months, in order to get someone else to do the whole thing. If you're handy, you could also build a bellows yourself, or spend time learning and doing your own repairs. That's great if you like to do it, but not so great if you don't.

If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options. One option is to buy something new. Intrepid and Standard Cameras are two inexpensive versions, and there are a few expensive options from Chamonix and others. A second option is to buy a used outfit from a "reliable and trustworthy" seller who can guarantee that the camera, lens, and accessories are in proper working order. Like for everything, there's no free lunch.

[Bernice Loui]

There is ZERO "classic" with or about a Sinar Norma, F, F+, F1, F2, P, P2, X and all their variants, they are modular designs that simply work with ease of modularity to adapt the Sinar to virtually any view camera image making need. Sinar remains THE view camera image makers tool. This is based on using the Sinar system since the mid-1980's to this day. More than a few of the Sinar bits were purchased used in the mid-1980's and they are used to this day.

As for repair, it is difficult to bust a Sinar. It demands a LOT of physical abuse and five to six figures of sheet film exposures to begin wearing out a Sinar. Given the view camera is modular, if a front or rear standard is broken, simply interchange that problem standard with another, then back to making images again. Know the standards from Norma-F(all variants)-P-P2 are interchangeable. This means one can customize a Sinar in ways to meet the needs of the individual image maker.

Quick look on eBay https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...ellows&_sop=15
notes plenty of Sinar bellows, both standard and bag 4x5 for about $40 USD and up. Horseman L series bellows work identical on Sinar.

As for cost, a GOOD used 4x5 Sinar is about the same as a brand new "Intrepid and Standard Camera" neither could hope to match the stability, precision, accuracy, ease of use, durability, reliability, modularity and wide variety of accessories with ease of availability on the used market.

Camera aside, the potential for vastly greater frustration for an image maker venturing into image making their first time is a whacky and unpredictable shutter more so than the camera as it is essentially a light-tight box that is flexi in the center.

With all that verbiage presented...

Sinar Norma is a better camera in construction than the F2. Difficulty with purchasing any Norma, they are now decades old. Unless the Norma to be purchased has received a proper Clean-Lube-Adjust, it will likely have lubricants that have become clay seriously impairing it's function. This is a given due to time and aging. But, it is not that difficult to Clean-Lube-Adjust a Norma as the quality of construction, design and materials are no different than a high quality Swiss made time piece. Once a proper Clean-Lube-Adjust has been done, a Norma will last and produce as many sheets of film needed for many more decades.

Sinar F2 has less of the lubricants turned to clay problem as it has high quality plastic gears and guides. These are mostly self-lubricating and more resistant to dirt intrusion. Sinar P and P2 are similar in this way.

Given your needs to use a 90mm for interior images, a bag bellows is essentially mandatory due to the needs of using camera movements both front and back. It is also likely a lens of much shorter focal length will be needed. This image making needs dictates the current fashionable new view cameras like the Intrepid-Standard Camera-Chamonix and similar as they are light weight field folders and do not meet the demands of interior view camera image making using very short lens focal lengths with combined front and rear camera movements.

As for learning how to "view camera" it is easier to learn on a monorail than a field folder due to the physical presentation and access of controls of the view camera. Back in the days of formal Photography view camera education the most common student view camera was a monorail camera, not a field folder.. why?


BTW, 5x7 Sinar Norma lives in a Pelican FAA carry-on approved roller case with four lenses (115mm Grandagon, 165mm Angulon, 10" or 12" Xenar or Kodak C. Ektar, ~one of the four barrel lenses gets picked depending on what is needed~, 16 1/2" or 19" APO artar), bag & standard bellows, Sinar shutter, light meter, 7x loupe, tape measure, dark cloth, cable release, six 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders.


Bernice

Your "first" 4x5 camera should be one that actually works properly. These esoteric discussions about the perfect classic camera are not very useful for practical purposes. Unless you're extremely lucky, an old camera is likely to be full of pinholes in the bellows, and will have some minor to major mechanical issues. If you know what to look for, and how to repair it, then fine and dandy. If not, you could be in for a very expensive and frustrating experience.

Sinars were extremely popular in their day, but that day has long gone. If you go to the B&H website and type in a search for Sinar, you'll get 10 items, all of them third party adapters. Good luck finding a new Sinar bellows. Sure, you can get a new bellows from England, or China, but you might have to put it on the frames yourself, or send the old frames to the supplier. Expect to pay at least $300, and wait a few months, in order to get someone else to do the whole thing. If you're handy, you could also build a bellows yourself, or spend time learning and doing your own repairs. That's great if you like to do it, but not so great if you don't.

If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options. One option is to buy something new. Intrepid and Standard Cameras are two inexpensive versions, and there are a few expensive options from Chamonix and others. A second option is to buy a used outfit from a "reliable and trustworthy" seller who can guarantee that the camera, lens, and accessories are in proper working order. Like for everything, there's no free lunch.

[Scott Davis]

5x7 Sinar Norma lives in a Pelican FAA carry-on approved roller case with four lenses (115mm Grandagon, 165mm Angulon, 10" or 12" Xenar or Kodak C. Ektar, ~one of the four barrel lenses gets picked depending on what is needed~, 16 1/2" or 19" APO artar), bag & standard bellows, Sinar shutter, light meter, 7x loupe, tape measure, dark cloth, cable release, six 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders.
Bernice

Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.

[Bernice Loui]

Will put this up as a separate post as this is worthy discussion.

Began with a Pelican 1510 roller:
https://www.pelican.com/us/en/produc...protector/1510


Bernice

Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.

[Bernice Loui]

Will put this up as a separate post as this is worthy discussion.

Began with a Pelican 1510 roller:
https://www.pelican.com/us/en/produc...protector/1510


Bernice

Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.