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Thread: Importance of back movements

  1. #21

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    Re: Importance of back movements

    A lot of great advice here. Do not give yourself limitations, especially not in the beginning. The more movements available the better. Get a plastic torpedo level, cut off the ends with a hacksaw leaving the two glass bubble ends. In most landscape situations the back ground glass should be level and vertical. The cameras that lack movements on the front standard can get that from tripod head adjustments. The best camera is the Sinar (they are available for a lot less than they were) There is a Sinar handbook, worth looking into (probably twenty bucks). Even with 35mm landscapes the camera is level and the back is (film plane) is true. That way stopping down serves you best.
    The most fun way to learn about your camera's movements is to get a chess set, set it up conventionally and not. Place a figure on the table and one on your sofa and see if you can get them both sharp. The polaroid back was a gem in its day. You can cut down b&w photo paper so it fits in your film holder, that keeps your learning curve's costs down. My first camera was a Calumet monorail, it gave me shots that I'm still proud of. I don't have a Sinar but have used them in studios that I worked in. The Sinar Handbook is very valuable regardless which camera you choose. Others have mentioned the fine work of Dr. Scheimflug. That is a point acheived when the film plane, the subject plane and the lens plane intersect. It is not only vertical but horizontal or even at another angle relative to the horizon. You will also need a good loupe and patience but its worth it. Have fun. bk

  2. #22

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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    So what's the best way to make the walls of buildings plumb (vertical)? I also have a asymmetric tilt using the back standard. How would that work with this issue?
    Simple Alan, see my earlier post. The camera back has to be parallel with the plane of the face of the building if you want the verticals in the wall parallel. Period.

    Any futzing for adjusting the plane of sharp focus needs to be done with the front standard then, so forget your asymmetric tilts once you get your camera back positioned correctly.

    When doing architectural work where I want vertical lines to be rendered parallel, I always set up my camera in zero position, level it with the tripod head using the spirit level(s) on the camera and then fine tune camera position by aligning the verticals with the grid on the ground glass. Then I lock down and never touch back tilt. Sometimes I'll swing the back to get horizontal lines parallel (or make them converge more, whatever the image wants). Subsequent adjustments for positioning the plane of sharp focus get done on the front standard.

    Best,

    Doremus

  3. #23

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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Sawyer View Post
    ...and then use front rise to center the frame on the building. No other movements are necessary.
    Maybe not necessary, but in a situation with a lot of foreground in front of the building one is photographing, a bit of front tilt can help with focus spread and enable the use of a more optimum aperture.

    And, as I just mentioned above, if one uses back swing to adjust the rendering of horizontal lines in the subject, front swing is usually needed to compensate.

    Best,

    Doremus

  4. #24
    Mark Sawyer's Avatar
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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    Sometimes I'll swing the back to get horizontal lines parallel (or make them converge more, whatever the image wants)...
    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    And, as I just mentioned above, if one uses back swing to adjust the rendering of horizontal lines in the subject, front swing is usually needed to compensate...
    Any back movements will cause keystoning, a big no-no in serious architectural documentation. Front and rear standards should always be plumb. Just use rise/fall to center the building as needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    Maybe not necessary, but in a situation with a lot of foreground in front of the building one is photographing, a bit of front tilt can help with focus spread and enable the use of a more optimum aperture....
    Tilting the front will tilt the lens' axis and the flat plane of focus that used to be coincident with the film plane.
    "I love my Verito lens, but I always have to sharpen everything in Photoshop..."

  5. #25
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder View Post
    Simple Alan, see my earlier post. The camera back has to be parallel with the plane of the face of the building if you want the verticals in the wall parallel. Period.

    Any futzing for adjusting the plane of sharp focus needs to be done with the front standard then, so forget your asymmetric tilts once you get your camera back positioned correctly.

    When doing architectural work where I want vertical lines to be rendered parallel, I always set up my camera in zero position, level it with the tripod head using the spirit level(s) on the camera and then fine tune camera position by aligning the verticals with the grid on the ground glass. Then I lock down and never touch back tilt. Sometimes I'll swing the back to get horizontal lines parallel (or make them converge more, whatever the image wants). Subsequent adjustments for positioning the plane of sharp focus get done on the front standard.

    Best,

    Doremus
    Thanks that makes sense. I usually don't have buildings in my landscape pictures but just had one the day before and couldn't figure out what to do. So I never got the lines plumb. I've got to practice tilting the front standard and getting away from asymmetrical tilts, period. The other problem with asymmetrical tilts is often the axis line isn't on the right distance subject.

  6. #26
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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Sawyer View Post
    Any back movements will cause keystoning, a big no-no in serious architectural documentation. Front and rear standards should always be plumb. Just use rise/fall to center the building as needed...
    And can equally be a big yes!-yes! in making an image with a building in it. When viewed with our eyes/brain from a low angle, buildings do keystone -- it is how we see/experience them. Without the keystoning, buildings may seem to loom over the viewer. Just something to remember as one works with images.
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

  7. #27

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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    Thanks that makes sense. “The other problem with asymmetrical tilts is often the axis line isn't on the right distance subject.
    Not quite, it depends on the camera. Some, like Sinar, use two points for their assymetricc tilts. If they are not the lines you want you. Need to rise/fall to make them lie on those points.
    Other, like LInhof. Have continuously variable assymetric tilt points.

  8. #28
    Mark Sawyer's Avatar
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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    And can equally be a big yes!-yes! in making an image with a building in it. When viewed with our eyes/brain from a low angle, buildings do keystone -- it is how we see/experience them. Without the keystoning, buildings may seem to loom over the viewer. Just something to remember as one works with images.
    True if you want keystone distortion for aesthetic reasons. But one can justify any method of doing anything for "aesthetic reasons", no matter how technically wrong it might be.

    Keystoning is a distortion, and considered poor form for HABS, HAER, HALS, or other technical/documentary photography where guidelines dictate images be: "taken with appropriate means to correct perspective distortion." (https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...-documentation).
    "I love my Verito lens, but I always have to sharpen everything in Photoshop..."

  9. #29

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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Trapezoidal building image rendition is not correct for accurate-proper architectural documentation. It does apply a choice of visual expression to buildings.

    The 391 San Antonio Road, Mountain View, CA. Address of William Shockley's old lab.
    https://www.eejournal.com/2018/08/17...and-destroyed/

    5x7 Sinar, 8-1/4" f6.8 Dagor. Rear standard movements applied specifically to "distort" then front movement applied to compensate for focus. Shift / Rise adjusted as needed for composition needs. Initial camera position chosen to result in this perspective.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Fairchild Deli (long demo_ed now).
    5x7 Sinar, 150mm f5.6 Schneider SSXL. Similar technique, different result. No B&W contrast altering color filters. just contrast (light intensity range) compressed via exposure time, development and...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lighthouse in Monterey, Building geometry held, no rear camera movements, tiny front movements to aid focus, more shift / rise / fall as needed to make the composition work with the camera position that was limited in many ways.
    5x7 Sinar, 150mm f5.6 Schneider SSXL.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    On camera or similar add-on levels are less useful than is believed due to variations in buildings and lots more. A GOOD grid on the GG is FAR more useful, camera with precise, accurate, stable and easy to make fine adjustments makes images like this significantly easier (one of the roots of low tolerance for field folder and similar cameras).

    Asymmetrical tilts/swings and all that are not a replacement for knowing how to properly and when to apply camera movements as needed. Asymmetrical tilts/swings ala Sinar were done to reduce time needed to establish studio table top and similar camera movements. They can be a time-saver if properly applied, BUT there is little if any advantage at all unless there is a proper of understanding of what camera movements do and impose their rules on the image being made. IMO, marketing feature that can apply in specific image making needs.


    Bernice

  10. #30
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: Importance of back movements

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Sawyer View Post
    True if you want keystone distortion for aesthetic reasons. But one can justify any method of doing anything for "aesthetic reasons", no matter how technically wrong it might be.

    Keystoning is a distortion, and considered poor form for HABS, HAER, HALS, or other technical/documentary photography where guidelines dictate images be: "taken with appropriate means to correct perspective distortion." (https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...-documentation).
    I am not talking about all the four-letter H-words as this is not an architectural photography thread, but about making images of/with (or without) buildings, too.

    We see the world as a distortion, we look up at a building and it 'keystones' -- that fact can be taken into consideration when creating images, as it can affect how the viewer sees, reacts, and/or interprets the image.

    There is zero technically wrong about keystoning or using other types of distortion in photography. They are techniques.
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

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