Reversal vs negative

[Bernice Loui]

That would be a no on being able to "directly evaluating color film" visually by eye alone. Photographic film materials do no work this way at all. Be it color positive or negative film, LOTs of real time experience from making prints and in-camera film creation is a must to learn this highly demanding skill. To believe what is visual on that color transparency will be on the finished print is self deception due to the harsh realities of the print making process and limitations of any print making process.

~Know the very real limitations and advantages of color positive (transparency) films.

~Know the very real limitations and advantages of color negative films.

Highly recommend spending some study time with film curves of positive & negative film materials, how their color layers function, why they behave in the ways they do. As previously mentioned, there are plus-minus to both. Knowing these advantages / dis-advantages will go a long ways to applying these photographic film materials towards meeting your print goals.

Personally, in this day and age, there is little if any good reasons to use color positive (transparency) film for a overly long list of very real limitations.


Bernice

I still like the idea of evaluating a colour film directly - I find it difficult as an orange negative, though I find less problem with B&W.
As for trying reversal, it will be just part of my large format exploration along side trails (which may turn out to be my main road eventually).

[LocalHero1953]

Thank you for all the advice, which I shall take on board.
As a recent new member of this forum I find it really irritating that I cannot (unless I've missed something?) show my appreciation of individual posts by a 'Like' or 'Thanks' button. I am reading a number of old (and current) threads where it would be useful to do this as well.

[maltfalc]

My keenness to embrace reversal film has receded slightly in the last few days as I have worked out a basic recipe and workflow to invert colour negatives as a preset in Lightroom, based on Alex Burke's recommendations. With one click this gets me to a starting point that I can quickly tweak to my own satisfaction. It still leaves me with sliders going the wrong way, but it is quick and doesn't depend on adjustments within the Negative Lab Pro plugin. I shall still try reversal films, but in parallel with negatives, not as an immediate replacement.

after inverting the tone curve, export as a tiff and that'll give you a copy with a normal looking tone curve and sliders that work the way they should.

[LocalHero1953]

after inverting the tone curve, export as a tiff and that'll give you a copy with a normal looking tone curve and sliders that work the way they should.

I've been doing that once I have finalised the colour. I'm an obsessive colour tweaker though, so I'd rather work non-destructively on a dng if I can. I'm just trying to work out which are limitations I have to live with and which I can find a workaround for.

[martiansea]

I've been doing that once I have finalised the colour. I'm an obsessive colour tweaker though, so I'd rather work non-destructively on a dng if I can. I'm just trying to work out which are limitations I have to live with and which I can find a workaround for.

If you open the main image as a Smart Object in Photoshop, you can always go back and nondestructively tweak the Camera Raw development settings. All the other stuff; curves, inversion, color adjusting, etc... all live as nondestructive layers on top of the Smart Object. And if necessary, you can always merge the layers into a rasterized image that again sits on top of the original nondestructive Smart Object. I teach all my students to work this way in the university photo classes I've lectured.

[LocalHero1953]

If you open the main image as a Smart Object in Photoshop, you can always go back and nondestructively tweak the Camera Raw development settings. All the other stuff; curves, inversion, color adjusting, etc... all live as nondestructive layers on top of the Smart Object. And if necessary, you can always merge the layers into a rasterized image that again sits on top of the original nondestructive Smart Object. I teach all my students to work this way in the university photo classes I've lectured.

I'm beginning to realise that I would be better off editing mainly in Photoshop rather than Lightroom, for these reasons. LR is more useful for the many similar digital images I generate, but PS is better for one-offs.

[martiansea]

I'm beginning to realise that I would be better off editing mainly in Photoshop rather than Lightroom, for these reasons. LR is more useful for the many similar digital images I generate, but PS is better for one-offs.

This has been my experience. LR (or in my case, DXO PhotoLab) is good for quickly processing a large batch of images from a single shoot, but PS (or Affinity) is much better suited to "deep" editing of single images. I've always found LR's editing tools lacking and awkward compared to the PS equivalents.

[PatrickMarq]

Provia is suppose to be better than Velvia to tone down the colors. I'm trying it now. Also has more stops. I started using Velvia after it came out. Outdoor Photographer and other magazines used it a lot on their covers, surely for it's "pop".

I have tried Velvia on120 but I don’t like the colors, but the new Kodak E100 this I love. It’s quite expensive voor a box of 10 sheets 4x5 about 65€.
Now I have to development them myself as there is no lab where I live, it will be quite an adventure with the Stearman sp-445.

[Bernice Loui]

Color films be they positive or negative have a design / optimized color temperature where they render their designed in color balance.

Historically, to achieve the color balance/rendition designed into the film, precise-accurate-consistent light sources were used to achieve lighting color temperature needed by the film to be used. This coupled with CC filter tweaking and color densitometer testing of the film negative/positive can produce consistent, accurate color rendition as designed into the film. This is often no longer the common way color film is used today. Seems most color films both negative/positive are exposed using outdoor or variable "time of the day" color temperature sunlight.

~Note color temperature variations with time of day~
https://www.thelightingpractice.com/...dian-lighting/

This will alter the color balance of the film positive/negative added to the density of the film based on exposure time of the film.

Answer to this by some, fix it in Photoshop or similar software...

But, other factors dig in. Color rendition of the monitor, how software adjust color, ambient lighting in the work area and more...
Then comes making and viewing the print which is also affected by the light being used to view the color print. Color spectrum of the color print is also dependent on the basic colors used to make the print as they have a mixed color signature all their own. Print substrate and surface texture can also have an effect on color perception.

And.. the mind/brain compensates (there are emotional effects from color too) for color perception adding more variables to how any color print is perceived.


All this and more comes to mind anytime color prints are discussed. Question remains, how does any image maker "judge" color, what is the point of reference?
Bernice

[Alan Klein]

Color films be they positive or negative have a design / optimized color temperature where they render their designed in color balance.

Historically, to achieve the color balance/rendition designed into the film, precise-accurate-consistent light sources were used to achieve lighting color temperature needed by the film to be used. This coupled with CC filter tweaking and color densitometer testing of the film negative/positive can produce consistent, accurate color rendition as designed into the film. This is often no longer the common way color film is used today. Seems most color films both negative/positive are exposed using outdoor or variable "time of the day" color temperature sunlight.

~Note color temperature variations with time of day~
https://www.thelightingpractice.com/...dian-lighting/

This will alter the color balance of the film positive/negative added to the density of the film based on exposure time of the film.

Answer to this by some, fix it in Photoshop or similar software...

But, other factors dig in. Color rendition of the monitor, how software adjust color, ambient lighting in the work area and more...
Then comes making and viewing the print which is also affected by the light being used to view the color print. Color spectrum of the color print is also dependent on the basic colors used to make the print as they have a mixed color signature all their own. Print substrate and surface texture can also have an effect on color perception.

And.. the mind/brain compensates (there are emotional effects from color too) for color perception adding more variables to how any color print is perceived.


All this and more comes to mind anytime color prints are discussed. Question remains, how does any image maker "judge" color, what is the point of reference?
Bernice

When I scan Velvia 50 or other chrome film, I adjust the colors in post to my taste. I don't try to match what's on the film although I'm sure I get close to the original colors. I never look at my screen after editing and compare to the original slide. My theory is that the color palette of any film was developed by a Japanese engineer who liked the colors he gave us. In the case of Velvia, it's so old that the artist-engineer is probably dead. So who cares what he liked? The film only a start point.