Avoiding purple tones with selenium...

**Doremus Scudder** · 2-Jun-2021, 11:08

If your paper tones too quickly, use a weaker dilution. In my experience, dilution does not affect the final image tone, however; it just takes longer to reach with a weaker dilution. Still, using a weaker dilution will give you time to pull the print before it becomes too purple for your taste.

The other option is to use a different paper that tones differently. Choices these days are rather limited, however. I really miss the old Seagull G and how it toned in selenium. The old Ilfobrom (not Galerie) toned beautifully in selenium too, as did Brilliant and even Kodak Elite. All gone now.

We have to work with what we have,

Best,

Doremus

**Dwayne Martin** · 3-Jun-2021, 19:16

Originally Posted by Ulophot

Temperature has not been mentioned, and I note that Devorobin lives in Sarasota, FL, though presumably with air-conditioning. In any case, selenium toning speeds up as the temp rises. You might wish, along wit hthe higher dilutions recommended above, to hold your toning bath at 68 degrees F, or a bit lower.

It is hot here no doubt about it but I keep my darkroom at a constant 71 degrees, that is warmer than ideal but probably not a deal breaker. It would take a lot of extra effort to cool things further with tempering baths of something similar.

I would also point out that in my case the color shift seems to be a lot less the next day when the print has dried.

Thanks

**Mark Sampson** · 3-Jun-2021, 20:26

This is odd, but... I've been printing with Ilford Multicontrast Classic and Adox MCC lately, and I can't get any color shift at all with KRST @1:20. Doesn't matter how long I leave the print in the toner (at nominal room temp). I wouldn't mind a bit of color shift... one of these days I'll test at stronger dilutions. 1:3 will do it I'm sure!

**esearing** · 4-Jun-2021, 04:02

Originally Posted by Mark Sampson

This is odd, but... I've been printing with Ilford Multicontrast Classic and Adox MCC lately, and I can't get any color shift at all with KRST @1:20. Doesn't matter how long I leave the print in the toner (at nominal room temp). I wouldn't mind a bit of color shift... one of these days I'll test at stronger dilutions. 1:3 will do it I'm sure!

I get a purple aubergine tone every time regardless of dilution on MGFB Classic with selenium, it just takes longer. Water impurities/differences maybe? People used to say there were different tones based on developer and fixer used but I have never been able to prove that.

**Michael R** · 4-Jun-2021, 07:11

Originally Posted by esearing

I get a purple aubergine tone every time regardless of dilution on MGFB Classic with selenium, it just takes longer. Water impurities/differences maybe? People used to say there were different tones based on developer and fixer used but I have never been able to prove that.

It is possible different developers might influence this to a limited extent. Toning could also take longer if a hardening fixer is used, although that is rare these days.

Ilford MG Classic tones much more strongly than MGIV. Ilford designed it to do that, so I found with KRST in order to just "neutralize" the colour of MG Classic, I had to dilute to at least 1:20 (or even 1:30-1:40) with my preferred toning time of 5 minutes. Any stronger than 1:20 and I got a significant colour shift with that toning time.

Of course there are variables here, which could explain the difference between what I see and what Mark is seeing. People perceive colours in different ways. Lighting can make a difference too.

**Doremus Scudder** · 5-Jun-2021, 10:42

Originally Posted by Mark Sampson

This is odd, but... I've been printing with Ilford Multicontrast Classic and Adox MCC lately, and I can't get any color shift at all with KRST @1:20. Doesn't matter how long I leave the print in the toner (at nominal room temp). I wouldn't mind a bit of color shift... one of these days I'll test at stronger dilutions. 1:3 will do it I'm sure!

I use both these papers and have no problem getting a tonal shift with KRST. A stronger dilution will likely get you some results, but don't jump to 1+3 from 1+20... Maybe try something in between. However, print developer can make a difference here. I use mostly ID-62 and D-72 these days (Bromophen and Zone VI in the past) and get fine toning. I used to use the Formulary glycin developer BW-65 and had a hard time getting a tonal change with that (the tone from the developer was beautiful by itself, however).

BTW, if you haven't read my posts about replenishing and re-using selenium toner, I'll recommend it (just search here on my name and selenium...)

In a nutshell, you add small amounts of toner concentrate to the working solution till you get toning times that you like. When toning times get too long, add a bit more to bring the toner back to strength.

You tone till you get the visual change you desire, not by the clock (which is pretty useless IM-HO).

Filter the working solution before and after use through filter paper or a coffee filter. It will last indefinitely this way. I have jugs that have been going for more than 10 years.

Best,

Doremus

**Dwayne Martin** · 5-Jun-2021, 15:24

Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder

I use both these papers and have no problem getting a tonal shift with KRST. A stronger dilution will likely get you some results, but don't jump to 1+3 from 1+20... Maybe try something in between. However, print developer can make a difference here. I use mostly ID-62 and D-72 these days (Bromophen and Zone VI in the past) and get fine toning. I used to use the Formulary glycin developer BW-65 and had a hard time getting a tonal change with that (the tone from the developer was beautiful by itself, however).

BTW, if you haven't read my posts about replenishing and re-using selenium toner, I'll recommend it (just search here on my name and selenium...)

In a nutshell, you add small amounts of toner concentrate to the working solution till you get toning times that you like. When toning times get too long, add a bit more to bring the toner back to strength.

You tone till you get the visual change you desire, not by the clock (which is pretty useless IM-HO).

Filter the working solution before and after use through filter paper or a coffee filter. It will last indefinitely this way. I have jugs that have been going for more than 10 years.

Best,

Doremus

I’m curious what you would be filtering out with the coffee filters? Residual silver, or a mix of everything the paper was immersed in before hand? Just curious. Obviously the selenium itself must pass through the filter….
D

**Doremus Scudder** · 6-Jun-2021, 09:51

Originally Posted by Devorobin

I’m curious what you would be filtering out with the coffee filters? Residual silver, or a mix of everything the paper was immersed in before hand? Just curious. Obviously the selenium itself must pass through the filter….
D

The used tones produces a fine black precipitate, a silver compound of some sort most likely. Since I transfer prints directly from the second fix to the toner, they still have fixed-out silver thiosulfate compounds in them. These go into the toner and bind with the selenium and precipitate out.

The selenium (and anything else) that is dissolved in the toner stays there when filtering; only the precipitated solids get removed. My toner remains very active for two or three toning sessions before needing a bit of replenishment.

Best,

Doremus

**Mark Sampson** · 6-Jun-2021, 11:35

Well, once I get a small a/c unit for the darkroom, I'm going to make some tests and figure it out. I've been printing for forty years and my results are... anomalous... to say the least. Not unpleasant or unacceptable, but I want to know what's going on.

**esearing** · 7-Jun-2021, 06:13

Thought I would share this image from my experimentation. All three images are Bergger CB Warm Tone paper developed with Photographers Formulary 106. Selenium 1:5 - Left 5:00 minutes, center 2:30, right untoned.