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Thread: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

  1. #1
    Drew Bedo's Avatar
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    Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    This is in the crazy idea, or "a solution looking for a problem" category:

    I have heard that the 135mm Elmar lenses can actually cover the 4x5 format.

    If that is so (and I don't know that it is), is there a LSM to Copal adapter ring anywhere?
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    pendennis's Avatar
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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    You may want to read this article:

    https://casualphotophile.com/2020/10...mm-f-4-review/

    From prior reading though, I understand the 135mm Elmar will only cover up to 6x6.
    Best,
    Dennis

  3. #3
    Tin Can's Avatar
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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    Good read

    Quote Originally Posted by pendennis View Post
    You may want to read this article:

    https://casualphotophile.com/2020/10...mm-f-4-review/

    From prior reading though, I understand the 135mm Elmar will only cover up to 6x6.
    2022

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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    Two comments.

    If you have the money, honey, SKGrimes and https://www.srb-photographic.co.uk/ will find the time to make an adapter that will let you hang a lens in LTM in front of a Copal #1 shutter. It is unlikely that a lens in a barrel designed to be mounted on a Leica body will make infinity on a press/technical/view camera when put on an adapter + a Copal #1 shutter.

    The MTF charts in the "good read" seem wrong. They show much better MTF @ 40 lp/mm than @ 10. This is the opposite of the usual result.

  5. #5
    Jim Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    According to Paul-Henry van Hasbroeck in Leica: A History Illustrating Every Model and Accessory, the first 135mm lens for Leica 35mm cameras was the f4.5 Elmar, originally designed in the early 1920s for 9x12cm plate cameras. This four element three group lens with its interchangeable mount was introduced in 1930 with the Leica I.

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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post
    Two comments.

    If you have the money, honey, SKGrimes and https://www.srb-photographic.co.uk/ will find the time to make an adapter that will let you hang a lens in LTM in front of a Copal #1 shutter. It is unlikely that a lens in a barrel designed to be mounted on a Leica body will make infinity on a press/technical/view camera when put on an adapter + a Copal #1 shutter.

    The MTF charts in the "good read" seem wrong. They show much better MTF @ 40 lp/mm than @ 10. This is the opposite of the usual result.
    All of the thread mount 135 Elmer lenses I had were actually short mount lenses that were screwed into the focus mount. You could unscrew the lens part to mount it on the bellows or the extension tubes.

  7. #7
    Drew Saunders drew.saunders's Avatar
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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    I have the following Leica lenses with removable optical assemblies for Visoflex (all of which I occasionally use with Visoflex bellows for fun macro work):

    90/4 LTM from the 1950's
    90/2.8 M w/o a serial number, probably from 1960 or so
    135/2.8 M from 1973

    I cut a temporary "lens board" from a cereal box, traced the hole for the 135/2.8, cut it, and focused inside on something about 8' away with each lens. These are all for 4x5.

    The 135/2.8 didn't cover to the corners, I'm estimating at least a 90mm image circle, maybe up to 100mm? Should work for 6x7cm, maybe 6x9cm?

    The 90/2.8 might work for 6x6cm, it had the smallest IC.

    The 90/4 covered to the corners, at least for indoor work, not sure if it would cover for infinity. That surprised me. Can't really tell you how good it looked, this was a quick test to see if it covered, someone else will have to mount the lens head and take some images.

    I presume a 135/4 or 135/4.5 might cover a 4x5 since the 90/4 did too.

    I had to hold the lens in the flimsy "lens board" so couldn't really also hold a tape measure to get exact IC size.

    You'd have to figure out a shutter, but I guess it would work.
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  8. #8
    Drew Saunders drew.saunders's Avatar
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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    I presume most folks haven't seen a Leica/Leitz lens with removable optical group disassembled, so I took a few quick iPhone pics of my 90 Elmar, background courtesy of the USPS. Once the optical group is removed, the rest of the lens is really just a tube with a focusing helicoid. As you can see, the 90/4 optical group is tiny, I think the 135/4 is not much larger.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.flickr.com/photos/drew_saunders/

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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    Quote Originally Posted by drew.saunders View Post
    I have the following Leica lenses with removable optical assemblies for Visoflex (all of which I occasionally use with Visoflex bellows for fun macro work):

    90/4 LTM from the 1950's
    90/2.8 M w/o a serial number, probably from 1960 or so
    135/2.8 M from 1973

    I cut a temporary "lens board" from a cereal box, traced the hole for the 135/2.8, cut it, and focused inside on something about 8' away with each lens. These are all for 4x5.

    The 135/2.8 didn't cover to the corners, I'm estimating at least a 90mm image circle, maybe up to 100mm? Should work for 6x7cm, maybe 6x9cm?

    The 90/2.8 might work for 6x6cm, it had the smallest IC.

    The 90/4 covered to the corners, at least for indoor work, not sure if it would cover for infinity. That surprised me. Can't really tell you how good it looked, this was a quick test to see if it covered, someone else will have to mount the lens head and take some images.

    I presume a 135/4 or 135/4.5 might cover a 4x5 since the 90/4 did too.

    I had to hold the lens in the flimsy "lens board" so couldn't really also hold a tape measure to get exact IC size.

    You'd have to figure out a shutter, but I guess it would work.
    Do it the easy way. Take the lens and a white mount board into a darkened room. Point the lens out a window while holding the mount board behind it. Move the board till you get a sharp image on it. See how big a circle it throws and thatís what it covers. How well will depend on what you will accept.

  10. #10
    Mark Sawyer's Avatar
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    Re: Elmar 135mm: Will it cover 4x5? LSM to Copal adapter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post
    If you have the money, honey, SKGrimes and https://www.srb-photographic.co.uk/ will find the time to make an adapter that will let you hang a lens in LTM in front of a Copal #1 shutter. It is unlikely that a lens in a barrel designed to be mounted on a Leica body will make infinity on a press/technical/view camera when put on an adapter + a Copal #1 shutter.
    If you don't have the money, a step-up ring should work. Both the Elmar and the Copal have pretty common thread sizes.

    Even if it doesn't cover, it may be fun to work "in the round" once in a while...
    "I love my Verito lens, but I always have to sharpen everything in Photoshop..."

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