Thank you,Originally Posted by Doremus Scudder
But aside from the no-wash or do-wash before toner, the staining is caused by inadequate, ie, weak, exhausted fix, no? So if I have a tray of fresh, robust fixer, there should be no staining, regardless of whether I wash before toning, or go straight into the toner without a wash or rinse. Do I understand correctly?
In other words, I could wash a print for 1 or 2 hours, but if it wasn’t properly fixed to begin with, I’ll see stains, correct?
Exactly right!
Remember that you can use selenium toner as a test for adequate fixing. If the print is not fixed well enough, a stain will result. The same with general toning.
Doremus
Thank you, sir. I did try the selenium test on a print yesterday, and yes, it did leave a light tan/brown color. This morning I made some prints with fresh fix. Washed them thoroughly for 15 minutes, and they are now drying. Tomorrow, I’ll try toning one with no second fix and one with a second fix (in fresh fix) and see what happens.
The issue I’m having with the mysterious gray specks on the backs of some prints cropped up again this morning on one of the prints. Can’t figure out what’s causing that. The specks disappear after the print dries.
Thanks again, Doremus. Send me a bill for your consultation fees.
Well, my staining problem continues. Even with fresh fixer, I'm still getting stained borders following selenium toning. I made three prints yesterday, fixing each one in a tray of fresh Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+4 dilution (for me 6 ounces of fix into 30 ounces of water) for 1 minute (per Ilford instructions) at 68 degrees F .
This morning I toned them, but gave two of the prints a second fresh fix bath at a weaker 1+9 dilution before toning. All three prints have the yellowish, nicotine-looking stains (when backlit) on the white print borders. The two prints that received a second fix bath have much less stain than before, but it's definitely there. The print that did not get the second fix bath looks the worse.
Prior to toning, all three prints had clean, white borders -- no trace of brown stains.
After toning, all three prints were rinsed thoroughly for 15 minutes, followed by 10 minutes in perma-wash followed by a 30 minute wash in running water in a tray, with constant shuffling and dumping of water.
My toner is freshly mixed with distilled water.
I'm stumped. The prints look fine under normal illumination, but when you hold them up to light, the brown stains are there. If the prints are getting adequate fixation, what is causing the staining when I tone them?
I may have to start skipping selenium toning, but I would hate to have to do that.
Well, Ben, the plot thickens...
Possibilities:
So, are you still washing before the toning? May it still isn't enough. Or, maybe the Perma Wash is getting in the way. Fixing should be adequate, especially with two baths of fresh fix. (Do, however, check your fixer concentrate for a sulfur smell and look for particles floating in it. Fixer will precipitate sulfur when it goes bad. You did a clip test, right? So the fix should be good. Anyway...
Things to try.
1. Forget the intermediate wash. Transfer your prints directly from the second fix to the toner. That's what I do, never had a problem.
2. Eliminate the Perma Wash. Personally, I don't trust the stuff. It's different than Kodak HCA and the Ilford Wash Aid and may be interfering with the toning. Also, there is absolutely no need to use Perma Wash before toning (if you are; I'm not sure) since you're going to give a final wash after toning anyway. So try a print or two without any Perma Wash at all (and just wash a bit longer) and then try one or two with Perma Wash before the final wash, but after the toning. If the Perma Wash ends up being the culprit, switch to HCA or mix your own wash aid as I detailed above (it's really easy and more economical).
I really can't think of much else...
Best,
Doremus
Hi Doremus,
Yes, I washed the prints for 15 minutes yesterday evening (after fixing) and hung them to dry. The borders were nice and clean this morning prior to toning.
Before toning this morning, I soaked the prints in water. From there, one print went directly into the toner, while the other two went into a second fix before toning. I’m not using Perma-wash before toning. I use it after toning, prior to the main, long wash.
I’ll switch to Ilford wash aid and see if that makes a difference.
It is puzzling. Sadly, before I realized this was happening, I made about 40 mounted and matted 8x10s. They look great (to the best of my ability), but now I have the gnawing knowledge that many of them are destined to deteriorate. I could offer them at greatly reduced prices, with a disclaimer on the back.
Thanks again for your help on this.
What specific paper is this?
I might not be following correctly, so apologies in advance... I would say that washing only partially after fixing, before then letting the print dry, is not a good idea.
How old is the fixer concentrate? Does it smell like acid or rotten eggs? What kind of selenium toner is it? How old is the concentrate? Does it have an ammonia odour?
If you can rule out bad chemicals (fixer and toner), I suggest the following experiment (I can't suggest exact times since I don't know what paper it is).
All temperatures (running water, toner, HCA) should be around 68F (better a little warmer than colder)
1. Process a print or even as normal, including 1 minute fixing in fresh 1+4 Ilford Rapid Fix at 68F with agitation
2. Give the print a full wash for the required time (longer in running water, or use the Ilford sequence with HCA, which is 5 minutes in fresh running water (at ~68F), followed by 10 minutes in HCA with agitation at 68F, followed by 5-10 minutes in fresh running water at ~68F. HCA should be either Ilford Washaid or Kodak HCA or make your own.
3. Either dry the print overnight or continue to step 5
4. If you dried the print overnight, soak it for 5 minutes in fresh water (~68F)
5. Working strength toner
6. Full wash in running water or post-toner Ilford sequence (5 minutes in fresh running water (at ~68F), followed by 10 minutes in Ilford Washaid or Kodak HCA with agitation at 68F, followed by at least 30 minutes in fresh running water at ~68F).
Last edited by Michael R; 17-Feb-2021 at 13:35.
Looks like insufficient fixing to me, when the edge or corner of a print rises and is not fully immersed long enough. Otherwise, ditto what Doremus said. But I always use TF4 fixer one shot, which saves a lot of time and fuss, and washes out easier, but is more expensive.
how old is your psper?
i once had a similar problem with old paper. turned out it was fog, not development problems at all. a new box of paper in that same session all came out perfect.
Thanks all. Paper (Ilford Multigrade Classic) is new. Using fresh fix for recommended time. I keep prints totally submerged and agitated in fix. Selenium toner freshly mixed with distilled water. I follow Ilford’s wash regimen, going beyond their recommended wash times.
My original problem was running too many sheets through fixer tray— I was relying on Hypo Check drops to keep tabs on fixer strength. But even with robust new fixer at recommended times, the staining occurs with selenium toning (mixed fresh).
Is there a way to reverse the damage after toning to get rid of stains (which are not visible unless print it backlit)?
I trim the borders off when dry mounting, and the images look fine. But I’m sure the staining must encroach on the image, but I can’t see it. But I know the photo is flawed and will not last a long time.
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