Discolored white borders on prints

[Michael R]

This is all very strange. When did you buy the toner? I may have asked already but is it Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner? Not that this should really matter.

I’m having a little trouble figuring out what’s going on in the image you posted. I guess we are looking at the white border, and it does look stained, but there also seems to be a pattern of dark lines/squares along with it. What is that?

One additional experiment I can think of trying is to repeat the entire procedure with a) unexposed, undeveloped sheet (just go right from the paper box into fresh fix). And then b) unexposed, developed sheet

The stained photo borders saga continues:
Here's a photo of the stained border on a print that received 2 fresh fixer baths, followed by a rinse and 1 hour of washing in a tray with, shuffling, dumping and refilling the tray throughout. This time, at the suggestion of a forum member, I eliminated the Heico Permawash to see if that is the culprit. But the staining is still there.
Prior to toning, the borders were clean. The selenium toner was mixed fresh 2 days ago using distilled water. If the prints received adequate fixation, then why do they stain after being toned in selenium? As I mentioned, the borders were clean prior to toning.
Again, the staining isn't visible unless there is light shining through from behind. I was thinking that if there was a problem with my city's water supply, the borders would be stained prior to toning.
I think Doremus suggested skipping the Permawash, but the staining is still there. And that's after 1 hour of washing.
The prints received 2 fresh fixing baths in 1+4 rapid fix, along with a long wash time.
I'm at a loss.
Attachment 212873

[Ben Calwell]

Hi Michael,
Those straight lines are somehow caused by my easel. That's a crappy iPhone photo, but yes, it's the white border showing the stains. Only visible with light shining through the print. I am using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner, and it's about two years old. I'll do as you suggest and try an unexposed piece of paper into fresh fix and toner and see what happens. Appreciate the input.

[Ben Calwell]

Before this thread fades into oblivion, one last observation: I just looked at some toned, unmounted prints I made from earlier boxes of Multigrade Classic FB, and the vast majority of them have clean, non-stained white borders when held up to a light. So, I must have gotten lucky with my processing regimen then (from last spring to fall). And I'm still mixing toner from the same bottle of KRST that I was using then. But anyway, moving forward, I have to assume that, as others have advised, that the root problem of what I'm experiencing is inadequate fixation (even though recent tests with 2 fixer baths and a 1-hour wash still causes yellowish stains). I'll just have to keep trying and see what happens.

[Doremus Scudder]

Okay Ben...

Seems we've eliminated lots of the usual suspects, so let's look for some not-so-usual ones

Since the emulsion doesn't seem to be affected, I'm thinking that the stain is in the paper base or maybe even in the baryta layer (this latter would be unlikely and definitely a paper defect.

So (just brainstorming):

Can you see the stains on the back of the print? Or do you need through-lighting to see it?

If the stain is easily visible on the back, then...
Are you making sure that the backs of your prints receive as much wash time as the fronts?
Is there any way that the back of the print is getting contaminated?
Could you be getting staining from your developer somehow? (see below).

If you need through-lighting to see the stain, i.e., it's not visible under normal surface lighting from the back or the front, then that means it is "inside" the paper somewhere, e.g., under the emulsion but somehow not on the back surface. If that's the case, try Michael's suggestion of toning unexposed prints, one that's just been fixed and one that's been developed and fixed. If the stains only show up on the developed one, then there's one set of possibilities, if it shows up on the one that was only fixed, then another.

Staining on the developed one would point to some kind of fogging or staining from the developer. Staining on a print that's only been fixed... well, I'd be contacting Ilford about that.

Whatever is going on, it's not normal and somehow, with a different paper batch or whatever, you'll be able to resolve it. So don't give up hope!

FWIW, I've been using more MG Classic these days and have had no such problems. However, I did have some problems with Adox MC-110 and Liquidol together. Somehow the developer stained the emulsion. Something similar might be going on in your case. In my case, however, the staining was visible right away, i.e., when I turned on the light over the fixer tray.

One more question: Is the staining just along the cut edge of the paper? In other words, is it just where solutions could seep into the interior of the paper from the edge. If so, I'd be contacting Ilford and printing with extra-wide borders so I could trim them off later

Keep us posted.

Doremus

[Tin Can]

22 years ago my instructor had a huge round cold water washer flowing vast amounts of water 24/7

It was an old building on Lake michigan that most likely never paid for water

He told us to wash for an hour but not more

I still do that with less flow and my water is cheap, but the water exchanges many times in an hour

some never removed their prints and I piled them up like rags

no RC allowed in DR

try a crazy wash

[Ben Calwell]

Okay Ben...

Seems we've eliminated lots of the usual suspects, so let's look for some not-so-usual ones

Since the emulsion doesn't seem to be affected, I'm thinking that the stain is in the paper base or maybe even in the baryta layer (this latter would be unlikely and definitely a paper defect.

So (just brainstorming):

Can you see the stains on the back of the print? Or do you need through-lighting to see it?

If the stain is easily visible on the back, then...
Are you making sure that the backs of your prints receive as much wash time as the fronts?
Is there any way that the back of the print is getting contaminated?
Could you be getting staining from your developer somehow? (see below).

If you need through-lighting to see the stain, i.e., it's not visible under normal surface lighting from the back or the front, then that means it is "inside" the paper somewhere, e.g., under the emulsion but somehow not on the back surface. If that's the case, try Michael's suggestion of toning unexposed prints, one that's just been fixed and one that's been developed and fixed. If the stains only show up on the developed one, then there's one set of possibilities, if it shows up on the one that was only fixed, then another.

Staining on the developed one would point to some kind of fogging or staining from the developer. Staining on a print that's only been fixed... well, I'd be contacting Ilford about that.

Whatever is going on, it's not normal and somehow, with a different paper batch or whatever, you'll be able to resolve it. So don't give up hope!

FWIW, I've been using more MG Classic these days and have had no such problems. However, I did have some problems with Adox MC-110 and Liquidol together. Somehow the developer stained the emulsion. Something similar might be going on in your case. In my case, however, the staining was visible right away, i.e., when I turned on the light over the fixer tray.

One more question: Is the staining just along the cut edge of the paper? In other words, is it just where solutions could seep into the interior of the paper from the edge. If so, I'd be contacting Ilford and printing with extra-wide borders so I could trim them off later

Keep us posted.

Doremus

Hi Doremus,
The staining is only visible with through-light from behind. Looking at the backs of the prints under normal lighting, they look fine. The staining isn't visible under normal surface lighting. And to my eyes, the staining appears to be just along the edge of the paper. It doesn't look as if the staining bleeds into the image area.
I'll definitely try Michael's suggestion and report back.
Also, I've been communicating with Ilford's technical support about this. I've sent them photos and also the batch number on the paper box. Haven't heard back yet.
Thanks again!

[Doremus Scudder]

Sounds like staining from developer, etc. seeping in to the middle of the paper from the edges now. This would be extremely difficult to wash out.

Can you see any separation/physical damage to the edges of the paper when you use a loupe?

If the staining is confined to the borders, the obvious work-around is to make prints with large borders and trim them off later. Many of us (me included) trim their prints to their final dimensions immediately before dry mounting. I don't know how you present.

I'm curious to hear what Ilford has to say about this. Do keep us posted.

Best,

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Sounds like staining from developer, etc. seeping in to the middle of the paper from the edges now. This would be extremely difficult to wash out.

Can you see any separation/physical damage to the edges of the paper when you use a loupe?

If the staining is confined to the borders, the obvious work-around is to make prints with large borders and trim them off later. Many of us (me included) trim their prints to their final dimensions immediately before dry mounting. I don't know how you present.

I'm curious to hear what Ilford has to say about this. Do keep us posted.

Best,

Doremus

Here’s the thing, though: I don’t see the staining before the toning. After fixing and rinsing the prints, I typically hang them up to dry before toning and complete washing the next day. When I shine a light through the dry, but untoned prints the next day, the borders look clean. The stains show up after toning. I do trim the borders off when I dry mount them. I’m hoping that the staining isn’t going into the image area. I can’t really tell because of all the different tones. I’ve switched to a 2 bath fix, and I’m going to keep at it. Also going to try Michael’s suggestion and process a couple of unexposed sheets and see what happens.
Thanks again!

[Ben Calwell]

Can’t see any damage to the paper, but I will check that with a loupe.

[Ben Calwell]

I've just emerged from the darkroom, three-day growth of beard and squinting against the bright light, ready to report an update on my stained photo borders problem. I thank my wife for shoving food under the door.
I'm happy to report that my latest batch of prints are stain-free ... but I don't know why.
The consensus opinion was that inadequate fixing was the cause of the staining (which was only visible when a light was shone through the print). And this was likely true, as I'm pretty sure I was pushing the limits on my single bath fix tray, putting my faith in drops of Hypo-Chek to gauge its strength.
At the urging of forum members, including Doremus, I switched to a two-bath fixation regimen. I also ditched the Heico Perma-wash, as it was suggested that this might be a cause. The batch before last, did the two-fix bath routine (fresh fixer), followed by KRST toning, following by a 1-hour wash with no perma-wash. The result: staining.
On this latest batch that do not have stains, I did two fixing baths. But before the second one, I washed-rinsed the prints for about 15 minutes before putting them into the second Ilford rapid-fix bath (1+9). I also went directly from the second fix bath into the toner.
After the toning, I rinsed them for 5 to 10 minutes, followed by Perma-wash for 5 minutes. I then washed the prints for 20 minutes (I know, I should have gone longer, but I was tired from being on my feet) in a tray with constant running water and constant shuffling and dumping and refilling the tray.
The borders are clean.
The big difference -- and I'm not sure it makes a difference -- is that this time, instead of hanging up the prints to dry after the first fix bath and rinse and then toning them the next day, I proceeded to the second fix and toning in the same darkroom session. I doubt that factors into it.
The only problem (other than mediocre prints) is that the mysterious gray specks re-appeared on the backs of two of the prints. Light shines through where each speck is. The odd thing is, theses specks disappear after the print dries.
At Michael's suggestion, I also processed two sheets of unexposed paper (Multigrade Classic FB). One unexposed sheet went from the box directly into the fix bath, and the other went from the box, into the developer, stop and fix. Both were fixed in two baths and toned. Each was washed as described above. Not sure what this was supposed to reveal, but both sheets are clean, with no staining.
So, moving forward, I'll try to duplicate what I did to produce stain-free prints.
Thanks again for all the help I received on this. Much appreciated.