Presence in 8x10 photography

[Jim Noel]

good morning all,

I'm sure this has been answered over and a over however I'm wondering if anyone can comment or send links on enlarged 8x10 vs 4x5. I've been shooting 4x5 for about 9 years always thinking grass would be greener with 8x10. I finally bit and sold all my medium format and 4x5 gear to get into 8x10.

I've yet to find my way, in the past in the past 5 months I've purchase and sold 2 very nice 8x10 cameras as they were too limiting or too heavy (Deardorff and Chamonix alpinist horizontal). I've currently got my hands on a Chamonix 810V and am torn whether to purchase it or go back down to 4x5.

What I'm after is Andrew Moore, David Leventi or Robert Polidori looking prints, esp. in the texture. The "Revelations" exhibition up at the Ogden currently features work from a long list of amazing photographers working in a variety of formats. It is a great show with some stunning imagery, however, there are two Andrew Moore images that separate themselves not necessary as images but as objects. The texture is so prevalent it stands alone looking almost like a painting rather than a photograph.

Is this a quality of 8x10 alone?

Links:
https://ogdenmuseum.org/exhibition/revelations
https://www.andrewlmoore.com/blue-alabama#gallery-5
http://arthurrogergallery.com/artists/david-leventi-2/


thanks -
Dave

Texture is produced by the lighting, not the camera.

[ic-racer]

I think it is pretty easy to tell my 16x20 prints made from 4x5 vs 8x10.

[Michael R]

I kind of understand where OP is coming from, although after seeing many examples I don’t really buy it anymore.

The issue, as others have raised, is how big can you go before the decline in the quality of the photographs more than offsets the improvement (or perceived improvement) in detail, texture etc.?

Aside from a small handful of exceptions, in my experience there is a kind of inverse relationship between the size of the camera and the quality of the pictures.

[Greg]

120 format: am looking straight on through a prism at a small magnified GG.
4x5: Looking through a 90 degree reflex finder at a GG with an upright image.
Whole Plate & 8x10: Looking at an upside down image on a GG. Am aware that the image is upside down.
11x14: looking at a huge image on a GG. Unaware that the image is upside down.

I tend to shoot very different subjects with each of the above formats. First 2 I enlarge the negatives. Next 3 I make contact prints from. My enlarged prints have a completely different presence than my contact prints when hung on a gallery wall next to each other. When viewed alone, I don't see the difference in their presence.

But then started making digital negatives to print Platinum/Palladium from... The final prints from all the formats, when viewed at normal viewing distances, all had the same presence... Actually liked that. In a retrospective exhibition I had 2 years ago, all the final prints, no matter what format they were shot with, really came together as a very unified show.

Just my 2 cents....

[Torontoamateur]

I was amazed upon entering a Weston exhibit at Museum of Fine Arts Boston at how the 4X5 Graflex SLR work he did of Carris Wilson seemed to pop off the wall more than fifty feet away.

Weston was THE Master of Pyro. The tones he had were the difference.

[Torontoamateur]

With the 8x10 people are "engaged" , They want to be part of a unique process. not just another digital snap. Karsh painted his 8x10 White to inpress and the subjects responded. When I use my Mahogany Wisner with Brass and a Burgundy Bellows people react differently. More forma I foll them too, I use a clicker to pretend I took the pic and they relax. Then I take the picture when they are more real.

[Bernice Loui]

Question and belief that 8x10 sheet film alone makes better images appears to come up far more these days than in the past.

Larger sheet film alone will NEVER make better images, the elements of an emotionally expressive images is typically a very LONG list of factors far beyond film size that results in an expressive print or image.

Before going off the deep end of believe and projecting 8x10 is the solution to achieving "Presence" in photography, consider all the print making aspects related to 8x10 sheet film. Enlarger, darkroom size, film cost and.. beyond the stuff related to any 8x10 camera. Does a 8x10 sheet of film produce better results than a 4x5 sheet of film projection enlarged to 16x20, maybe. Does 8x10 have the potential to produce exceptional contact prints yes, but again a long list of factors figures into both these examples.

Consider what makes a photograph_print significant. More often than not, it is what the image says to the viewer and all the techno related stuff to the majority of print viewers might not notice or care or place value on stuff photographers values most. What could be most important to the individual viewing any given images, is what emotions are stirred when the image is viewed. Sure the Foto techno aspects are part of this, but these aspects alone can never make the image expressive. That is much about what the artist-photographer is trying to express with this visual medium.


IMO, concentrate in lighting, shapes, composition, tonality and all these other image cues that viewers respond to before leaping into 8x10 only to discover a completely different set of trade-offs that are not likely going to resolve the original goals.

This question is more likely about how to express one's sense of artistic expression by means of photography than about any 8x10 camera and related image making system.



Bernice

[Vaughn]

Once one leaves silver gelatin enlargements and starts contact printing with alternative processes, one enters into a whole new world of, well, alternatives. The capabilities and possibilities of a particular alt process can play a large role in shaping one's artistic expression...or help take it another step (I'll leave the direction up to the reader).

One of the big differences I found between enlarging 4x5 to make 16x20 silver gelatin prints, and making 8x10 contact prints, was the use of both of ends of the tonal scale and the power of form...especially with even smaller contacts ...4x10, 5x7, 4x5 and 6cmx6cm. An example would be a small detail-less but vital shadow area on a 4x5 contact print that becomes a detail-less blotch of black enlarged on a 20x24 print. Making platinum prints and carbon contact prints, I need to compose the MF and 4x5 cameras with more thought to form, whereas with the 11x14 camera I can use form, but also weave detail (and texture) into the composition.

I find 5x7 and 8x10 cameras can be worked either way with some attention to viewing distance. Hand-held these images can contain detail that can draw one into the image...depending on good lighting and good eye sight (and/or glasses!). On a wall without being able to put one's nose to the glass, then form rises in importance even with 8x10.

[armentor1@mac.com]

All I really appreciate everyone chiming in, there is some great advice in here. I'm going to shoot this camera for the week then do some side by side comparisons. Currently I'm finding that I really enjoy working with the camera however, the package is so large that I'm hesitant to take it with me. I'm about 15 sheets in and will post some results including side by side comparisons once I process.

thank you all -
Dave Armentor

www.davidarmentor.com

[Bernice Loui]

Why not consider 5x7 _ 13x18cm? Not a lot larger than 4x5 system, absolutely smaller and lower weight than 8x10 with often equal or in some cases better image capability (projection enlargement 2-3x) than 8x10 due to lens variety and required aperture and film flatness is easier to manage.

Gave up 8x10 about 25 years ago, no regrets in any way. Not the camera and related that makes 8x10 clunky, stack of twelve 8x10 film holders can be a challenge to transport.

What you're likely going to find, different between 4x5 vs 8x10 is in tonality, total lack of grain (B&W), and overall better ability to hold shadow detail and overall contrast rendition.

Another plug and opinion, ultimately you'll need to make this choice.
Bernice

All I really appreciate everyone chiming in, there is some great advice in here. I'm going to shoot this camera for the week then do some side by side comparisons. Currently I'm finding that I really enjoy working with the camera however, the package is so large that I'm hesitant to take it with me. I'm about 15 sheets in and will post some results including side by side comparisons once I process.

thank you all -
Dave Armentor

www.davidarmentor.com