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Thread: F Stops For Portraits Questions

  1. #21

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    Addendum: Just a note. I have never fully grasped the science, but there appears to be some evidence that the effects of perspective from closer distances are somewhat less pronounced in a print from large format than from, say, 35mm, a property owing to the degree of enlargement and typical viewing distance to the print. In many cases, however, it is hard for the viewer to immediately perceive a "pronounced" close perspective (within limits) without knowing the subject; immediately, that is, because scrutiny might indicate proportions that suggest the closer distance. However, a face can be slimmed, from some angles, from closer up as compared with a greater distance, and broadened a bit from further away. In any case, the totality of the portrait in and what it conveys is what counts, and in this, we certainly have a great deal of freedom -- and a great deal of challenge!
    Philip Ulanowsky

    Sine scientia ars nihil est. (Without science/knowledge, art is nothing.)
    www.imagesinsilver.art
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/156933346@N07/

  2. #22

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulophot View Post
    Addendum: Just a note. I have never fully grasped the science, but there appears to be some evidence that the effects of perspective from closer distances are somewhat less pronounced in a print from large format than from, say, 35mm, a property owing to the degree of enlargement and typical viewing distance to the print. In many cases, however, it is hard for the viewer to immediately perceive a "pronounced" close perspective (within limits) without knowing the subject; immediately, that is, because scrutiny might indicate proportions that suggest the closer distance. However, a face can be slimmed, from some angles, from closer up as compared with a greater distance, and broadened a bit from further away. In any case, the totality of the portrait in and what it conveys is what counts, and in this, we certainly have a great deal of freedom -- and a great deal of challenge!
    There is a better chance that it doesn’t seem as pronounced as people have become used to seeing foreshortening from TV broadcasts, especially of interviews on TV.

  3. #23

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    Perhaps. I certainly agree with you regarding the ubiquity of the wide-angle close-up, which, as I recall, came in big-time in the late '60s with the psychedelics. Computer lens design andother tech developments facilitated it, I would guess -- something about which you know infinitely more than I.

    Walter Rosenblum told me back in the '70s that the trick to using wide-angle lenses is to use them so that the short focal length does not draw attention to itself.
    Last edited by Ulophot; 21-Dec-2020 at 13:58. Reason: Addition
    Philip Ulanowsky

    Sine scientia ars nihil est. (Without science/knowledge, art is nothing.)
    www.imagesinsilver.art
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/156933346@N07/

  4. #24

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulophot View Post
    Perhaps. I certainly agree with you regarding the ubiquity of the wide-angle close-up, which, as I recall, came in big-time in the late '60s with the psychedelics. Computer lens design andother tech developments facilitated it, I would guess -- something about which you know infinitely more than I.

    Walter Rosenblum told me back in the '70s that the trick to using wide-angle lenses is to use them so that the short focal length does not draw attention to itself.

    That's interesting about the wide-angle closeup in the late 60's, because maybe a part of what I'm doing with the Xenotar 150mm lately, was motivated by the Acid Western genre of movies, among other influences (Cormac McCarthy, Jim Thompson, etc...)

  5. #25

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    There are no real hard set rules on what f-stop should be used for portraits, same applies to focal length used. While there are what is considered "professional" standards of portraiture, is this the look and image goal you're after?

    As for wide angle portraits, this rather famous cat lady fight scene from Clock Work Orange was made using a 9.8mm Kinoptik Tegea. Stanley Kubrick applied this wide angle lens to this scene very, very, very effectively. The resulting images are very much portraits in motion. As for f-stop used in this scene, the 9.8mm Kinoptik Tegea has a full aperture of T2.3 or f1.8, what aperture might have been used for this scene?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlq92tQHVk

    I'm not convinced portraits made using a view camera should be limited to what tradition has dictated, other portraits methods should be considered from other imaging media including film, video, painting and more... Some can be adapted to view camera images, others cannot.

    It all goes back to your print image goals, once this is mostly established, figuring how to achieve it can begin.


    Bernice




    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelKurtz View Post
    That's interesting about the wide-angle closeup in the late 60's, because maybe a part of what I'm doing with the Xenotar 150mm lately, was motivated by the Acid Western genre of movies, among other influences (Cormac McCarthy, Jim Thompson, etc...)

  6. #26

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    There are no real hard set rules on what f-stop should be used for portraits, same applies to focal length used. While there are what is considered "professional" standards of portraiture, is this the look and image goal you're after?

    As for wide angle portraits, this rather famous cat lady fight scene from Clock Work Orange was made using a 9.8mm Kinoptik Tegea. Stanley Kubrick applied this wide angle lens to this scene very, very, very effectively. The resulting images are very much portraits in motion. As for f-stop used in this scene, the 9.8mm Kinoptik Tegea has a full aperture of T2.3 or f1.8, what aperture might have been used for this scene?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlq92tQHVk

    I'm not convinced portraits made using a view camera should be limited to what tradition has dictated, other portraits methods should be considered from other imaging media including film, video, painting and more... Some can be adapted to view camera images, others cannot.

    It all goes back to your print image goals, once this is mostly established, figuring how to achieve it can begin.


    Bernice
    I'm at the point of breaking some of the rules that I learned, after 10 years of photo assisting for some of the bigger commercial photographers in "the biz". I was assisting during the film days, into the digital age. I recently transitioned from shooting with the Pentax 67 105mm 2.4 lens, to large format with the Xenotar 150mm, and am very happy with the results I'm getting from it at f2.8. What I was looking for in my original post was satisfied with the member who posted the black and white photo of a young boy, photographed at f8. It is a perfect example of what I was looking for. I'm going to do a film test anyway, but wanted to see if anyone had any examples they could post, and luckily someone did. I do agree with getting outside of the box, so to speak. I love the cinematography of Robbie Muller, and he was one of the biggest rule breakers of 'em all. Thanks

  7. #27

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    If you're happy and good with the results of a taking aperture of f2.8 with the 150mm Xenotar, KEEP AT IT.

    At this point, the rules can become of significantly lesser value in your portrait making goals. Know rules tend to limit creativity and possibilities of developing your own style of Portrait making. Much like learning to play a musical instrument where the student practices exercises and pieces of music intended to develop their skills and abilities on a given musical instrument for hours and hours each day, over weeks, months and years of the music student's life. At some point the music student gives up on practice of this stuff, once enough mastery has been achieved and needs to make each piece of music their own rendition of their creative interpretation and personal expression of the work. Photography is no different in this way, once enough mastery of the art-craft has been achieved, it is up to the artist-photographer to use what has been mastered-learned as a means of creative expression... and this will not happen by following the ..... Rules. Question becomes where did these "Rules" come from and why?


    Bernice


    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelKurtz View Post
    I'm at the point of breaking some of the rules that I learned, after 10 years of photo assisting for some of the bigger commercial photographers in "the biz". I was assisting during the film days, into the digital age. I recently transitioned from shooting with the Pentax 67 105mm 2.4 lens, to large format with the Xenotar 150mm, and am very happy with the results I'm getting from it at f2.8. What I was looking for in my original post was satisfied with the member who posted the black and white photo of a young boy, photographed at f8. It is a perfect example of what I was looking for. I'm going to do a film test anyway, but wanted to see if anyone had any examples they could post, and luckily someone did. I do agree with getting outside of the box, so to speak. I love the cinematography of Robbie Muller, and he was one of the biggest rule breakers of 'em all. Thanks

  8. #28

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    Re: F Stops For Portraits Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    If you're happy and good with the results of a taking aperture of f2.8 with the 150mm Xenotar, KEEP AT IT.

    At this point, the rules can become of significantly lesser value in your portrait making goals. Know rules tend to limit creativity and possibilities of developing your own style of Portrait making. Much like learning to play a musical instrument where the student practices exercises and pieces of music intended to develop their skills and abilities on a given musical instrument for hours and hours each day, over weeks, months and years of the music student's life. At some point the music student gives up on practice of this stuff, once enough mastery has been achieved and needs to make each piece of music their own rendition of their creative interpretation and personal expression of the work. Photography is no different in this way, once enough mastery of the art-craft has been achieved, it is up to the artist-photographer to use what has been mastered-learned as a means of creative expression... and this will not happen by following the ..... Rules. Question becomes where did these "Rules" come from and why?


    Bernice
    So true... I started out in the back of the rental department at Samys Camera in Los Angeles, cleaning and checking every single piece of equipment that was returned to rentals. Within about 5 months, I knew basically every camera and strobe pack inside and out (we had it all). I then assisted for 10 years (back in the large format days, and through to digital, testing the Nikon DCS 620 (a $15,000 TWO megapixel camera) when it first arrived in Samys rental department), and somewhat learned the actual skill of picture making (from photo assisting), then went out on my own. The portrait lenses used the most back then (if I remember correctly) were: Contax 645 120mm, Pentax 67 105mm to 165mm, Mamiya RZ 110mm, 4x5 210mm or 240mm... and on and on... At this point, I'm more interested in the experience of making portraits, letting one picture "carry" me to the next. The equipment is secondary (in a way), these days... In a way trying to simultaneously forget alot of what I learned, in order to do something (hopefully) a bit more "poetic" or "lyrical"... Excellent technique and the "right" equipment can make for great photographs, but it doesn't guarantee a great "picture." Two very different things.
    Last edited by ColonelKurtz; 22-Dec-2020 at 11:05.

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