RA4 - how to get things right?

[pkr1979]

Hi all,

I just took some time off work to try to figure out how to do RA4 printing. I tried both in trays at room temp and in drums at 35 Celsius / 95 Fahrenheit.

I used the same neg and tried three times in trays. The film used is Kodak Portra 160.
All exposed at 2,5 seconds at f11, and then developed for 1 min 45 sec and blixed for 1 min 45 sec (probably a bit more for both).

Filtering for first: Y40, M50
Filtering for second: Y70, M50
Filtering for third: Y55, M50

With the same neg I also tried one time in drum at 35 Celsius / 95 Fahrenheit. I tried to follow the Tetenal instructions on timing counting from chemistries first contact with film until next bath... I had no chance in doing that. CD should have been 45 sec, stop for 15 sec and blix for 45 sec... my times was probably more like 60, 30 and 60 (at least)...
Filtering was Y55, M50 and exposed at 2,5 seconds at f11 (this came out to dark when using the same exposure - which probably shouldn't be a surprise).

Anyway, I shot this:



And they came out like this:



Top left is first: Y40, M50. Top right is second: Y70, M50. Bottom left is third: Y55, M50. Bottom right is from drum.

I also developed a negative of my daughter the same way and the third one developed in tray wasn't that off in terms of skin color/pleasing to the eye, which is why I tried the same filtering for drum developing despite knowing that the increased temperature would affect color... but I had no idea how much.

Im not really sure where to go from here. Regardless of the filtering alternatives and temp used red came out brownish on all four copies. But might that be a characteristic of Portra 160? If its not Id like to try to adjust this...

I find the ones developed in trays to look more faded then the one developed at 35/95 degrees in the drum... which I think has stronger colors/punch/contrast... but I dont know if this is due to increased temp solely or if it is the combination of increased temp and the spesific filtering. If higher temp in drums actually provides more color/contrast/punch... is there a way to compensate for this with trays?

I'll admit I'd rather do it in trays out of convenience and less stress... however, how important is timing for the various stages when developing the prints in drums at 35/95 degrees?

Also, Im not sure how important this is, but I used the regular Tetenal RA4 kit with trays, and the Tetenal Magic Box RA4 kit when using drums... I assume the chemistry is pretty similar though.

Whoever bothers to respond to this with some helpful advise I'll get a beer when in Oslo, Norway.

Cheers
Peter

[Ironage]

Just looking at your test exposures as they look on my ipad I can give you a guess but it depends of the digital scan which is another layer of complexity. They all look over exposed but the one in the drum is badly overexposed. Maybe even a full stop. 2,5 seconds is too short to be consistent with printing. Try stopping down to f16 and 4 seconds. The first exposure is too red, and the others are too magenta. Try Y30 M40. If the result is too blue go Y35 M45. Good luck. I just bought drums and a roller, and will be getting back into color next month.

[Drew Wiley]

Too short a printing time to be consistent, for sure. Most of that 2.5 sec would involved the color shift in the bulb itself as it warms up and fades back down. You want at least ten times as long an exposure. Otherwise, everything is coming out too magenta, which means you actually have to increase magenta to start balancing that back, this being a negative process. But that's hard to determine precisely unless you use a more reliable exposure time.

[pkr1979]

Thanks guys. Are both of you doing this in drums at 35/95 degrees? How particular are you about timing your baths?

[Ironage]

I have used the the Arista chemicals available in the US. It calls for 38 degrees. The warmer temps are easier for me to keep accurate. Drums are easier as well because keeping the solution at the correct temperature is also easier. The developer time needs to be consistent so follow the recommended times.

[Drew Wiley]

I standardize on 2 min 30C for Ra/Rt, drums various sizes, always one-shot usage. The Kodak, Arista, and Silver Pixel kits are chemically identical. Pre-rinse, about 30 sec, ample volume. Dev 2 min including 5 sec each load and drain. 1/2% acetic acid stop about 30 sec, but with drain I round it off to 1 min just for sake of keeping time more easily, likewise a total of 1 min plain water rinse after the stop, just to make sure no stop accidentally gets into the next step. Blix 2 min overall. Then I rinse in drum for 5 or 6 water changes of about 2 min each, significantly more time than specified, but way better washed, and that's what I want. I haven't even bothered plugging in my Thermaphot automated roller-transport processor. One more big hunk of junk at an estate sale when I croak.

[pkr1979]

Thanks guys - appreciate this :-)

[agregov]

Agree with the points on your exposure time is too short...you're in the reciprocity failure of the paper with too short times. I'd stay over 4 seconds. That said, I don't think that's the root cause of bad color casts. There's quite a bit you have left off your description that would be helpful. For example,

-What enlarger are you using with corresponding head?
-What type of rotary processor are you using and does it have a tempering bath?
-What type of paper are you using?
-Are you a beginner with RA4 printing or have you done it before in a color darkroom with processor?
-Are you color correcting on dry prints? Meaning, do you put your wet prints through a paper dryer before looking for color casts.

Some general notes based on my experience having used large 50" processors and at home a 14" Fujimoto as well as CPP3 for drum processing.

-Chemistry type shouldn't be a big deal but I'm only familiar with using Fuji RA4 professional chemistry. Fuji Digital RA Pro P1-R Developer Repl and Fuji CP RA P2-R Bleach Fix & Repl. Heating temp for me 35C.

-Between a 50" professional processor and my home 14" Fujimoto, I've noticed zero difference in quality of RA4 prints. Further, I've printed up to 20x24 prints in drums on my Jobo CPP3 and also have seen zero difference in quality from roller processors. The only difference I did notice with using the Jobo is the color pack on the enlarger will be different to get the same "color correct" print as with the processor. My theory is the drum spins and creates different agitation than a roller processor. Different agitation = different color casts.

-My development time in the processor per bath is about 45 seconds for each bath (developer, Blix, wash 1, wash2). My development time in the Jobo is 1 minute for each (as per Jobo's instructions). I gather the extra 15 seconds in the Jobo over the processor is to account for temperature loss of chemistry hitting a cooler drum and time needed to cover paper. Again, all of this is at 35C.

-I do not use one shot chemistry passes for RA4. I do when developing C41 film but with RA4 I replenish. Or simply use the same chemistry for say 10-20 8x10 prints (say about 1lt of chemistry) and the toss it or remove 500ml and add a fresh 500ml. If you want precise control of color casts, replenishment should be after every print processed (say 10-25ml). I'm not concerned with such high tolerances especially when making work prints.

-I believe RA4 does not require 35C. The cooler the chemistry, the longer your development and Blix time will be. The longer estimates in the thread sound about right.

-In my experience learning RA4 printing, the hardest part (for me at least) was learning how to see color casts and manipulating the color pack (head) in the enlarger. If you're starting out, I'd suggest some patience. Also, I wouldn't bother shooting color charts and starting there, rather as you describe, print real images and practice color correcting on those.

-Personally, I would stay away from tray processing. I'd probably print on inkjet before I'd head in the tray processing direction for analog color image making. If you'd like to make RA4 color prints, I'd get a Jobo and a RC paper dryer. You will get perfect prints that way. I think you'll be fighting quality in trays and longer development times will slow you down and get discouraging. Long term, finding a roller processor is the best. Yes, I know finding machines like Fujimotos in working condition is hard but it really is the best way to print RA4. I really enjoy the darkroom with the processor. I tolerate it with the Jobo (just not that fun). Can't imagine doing it with trays.

[koraks]

Exposure times of around 2-3 seconds are definitely on the short side because they're a bit difficult to reproduce depending on the equipment used. But they're not in reciprocity failure territory, especially not with today's RA4 papers. These are optimized for very short exposures to begin with!

[pkr1979]

Good evening,

And thanks :-)

I am using a Durst M670 Color. Ive been using both trays room temp (3 first), and a Jobo CPA2 (tempering bath at 35C) with lift and a Expert Drum 3005 (the 4th.). The paper is Fujicolor Crystal Archive Type II Luster.
Im completely new to this... and the prints where not completely dry when I looked for color casts (they were dry when I photographed them for illustration here).
I was doing real images too... I just added the color charts as I thought it might be helpful since its easy to compare to the chart.

Next I'll do longer exposure times with f16.

Cheers
Peter