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Thread: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

  1. #1

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    Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    Hello All,

    I'd love to hear your thoughts about what may be the blocking the image at the top of this test negative, please. This view is as the image looked on the GG, so the top as seen here is the bottom of the image.

    This is the first negative I've made with my new camera, so I'm not yet familiar with it's limitations ~ thus the test. One thought is the bellows may have obstructed the image? Though this would surprise me, given no one mentioned this during my info gathering as a potential issue with the lens I used here, or even much wider lenses.

    Below are the details to help sort this out ~

    Many thanks for your kind help!

    David

    Intention: tree in focus, background not

    Chamonix F2
    Universal Bellows
    Caltar II-N 210mm, f5.6 lens
    F16 1/3@1/30th

    Camera pointed upward
    F and R vertical
    F small forward tilt
    F moderate rise

    Darkslide removed completely
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_E2847.jpg  

  2. #2
    David Schaller
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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    When you tilted the camera upwards, then brought the back vertical, the bellows got in your picture. It's happened to me. It has nothing to do with your specific camera. You might try to recreate your movements on the camera, in your living room, and you'll see what happened. The angle was too extreme.

  3. #3
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    I'm new to 4x5 cameras and have a Chamonix 45H-1. Just curious. Why did you tilt the front standard?

    On a separate note, I have a big lens. I haven't had the problem you have had, yet. But I noticed that the lens will hit the bellows if I'm not careful.

  4. #4

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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    It's possible you haven't inserted the film holder fully. There is a narrow rib on the upper end of the film holder. This rib engages with a slot in the camera back. Since you're new to this, the film holder may not have been inserted far enough for the rib to engage in the slot. Depending on the wear of the camera back and film holder, the engagement may be easy or difficult to feel or hear.

    If the bellows is interfering, you can check for that by looking through the lens to see if you can see all four corners of the ground glass (from the front of the camera).

  5. #5
    Huub
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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    My guess would also be with David Schaller: it looks like your bellows got in the way. If your camera has a ground glass with clipped corners, make it a routine to check if you can see the complete diafragma of your stopped down, but still open lens when you look through these clipped corners. If your camera hasn't such a ground glass, look from the front of your lens into the camera and check if you can see the complete ground glass with some marging. This also works to check if you go beyond the image circle of your lens.
    A bellows that intrudes into the image area can often be adjusted by putting some object between the bellows and the camera bed for instance.

  6. #6

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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    It's a good idea to use your front rise as much as possible before resorting to the "point up and tilt parallel" method of getting more rise.

    That said, there should be a way to get the bellows from interfering even with extreme movements. It kind of looks like the bellows sag was somewhere close to the lens.

    Recreate the movements and focus you had on the problem shot and remove the back to see what's in the way. There's probably a way of shifting the bellows around a bit that will solve your problem. Many cameras have bellows with a D-ring on top, roughly in the middle, so you can hook the bellows up to something to counteract the sag.

    On similar shots in the future you'll need to check for this and correct it before exposing.

    Best,

    Doremus

  7. #7

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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    Thanks to all for your helpful replies!

    Looking through the lens as suggested, I now see the corners at the top of the GG (image bottom) aren't visible, corresponding to the loss of the image on the negative.

    Is this an image circle issue, or a bellows issue? The Caltar II-N lens has a large circle of 294mm, so I'd be surprised if this is an issue of coverage? Although maybe at this angle (see below) most image circles would be obstructed?

    If I gently lift up at the lowest point of the bellows in this camera position, I do see a some difference on the GG, with the upper (lower) corners just becoming visible. I don't know if using something to eliminate the sag, say, a soft bean bag, would be a viable solution ~ could be a little finicky, unstable?

    Other than trying to support the bellows, would my only other alternative be to reduce the camera pointing upward + vertical tilt by raising the camera higher on the tripod (thus necessitating a ladder) and shooting at more of a level angle?

    What do you think?

    Thanks again!
    ~D

    PS As for looking through the clipped corners of the GG, I'm not sure what to look for, and only see what appears to be a small dark arc ~ is this a partial view of the lens diaphragm?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #8
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    I've never had this kind of obstruction with front rise on a 210mm lens.

    Question: on this photo, did you actually tilt the camera back and then tilt both the standards, as in the pic you have shown here in the post above? There is no reason to do this - just set the camera flat with the rear at 90 degrees and use more front rise. I have a feeling the extra gyrations of your setup there may have contributed to the issue. Secondly I would check that your "universal" bellows at the front aren't sagging into the image.

    You only need to do that "tilt" in a situation where you run out of front rise - almost impossible with a Chamonix.
    Bryan | Blog | YouTube | Instagram | Portfolio
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  9. #9
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

    Quote Originally Posted by David Wolf View Post
    ...PS As for looking through the clipped corners of the GG, I'm not sure what to look for, and only see what appears to be a small dark arc ~ is this a partial view of the lens diaphragm?
    Look thru the clipped portion of the GG towards the lens -- if you can see the entire aperture, then you have nothing blocking the light and you will get full illumination to that corner. You will see if the bellows are blocking any of the light. One can look thru the cut-corners while closing the aperture to see what f/stop gives first fully illuminated the corners, and use that info to adjust movements and help determine one's optimal aperture for the image.
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

  10. #10
    ic-racer's Avatar
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    Re: Please help evaluate what happened on this test neg with new Chamonix F2

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