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Thread: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

  1. #21

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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    Grat,

    I agree with most of what you say. But it's my understanding that PMT scanners, assuming a well implemented system operating in spec, has, by it's very nature, less flare than a flat or digital camera system. Whether this is important will depend on the viewer.
    Indeed. They appear to be fairly "deep" in their design, limiting the amount of side-scatter. I confess to not knowing much about PMT sensors-- but I would suspect a modern, monochrome only CCD/CMOS sensor would have greater density. But that's a guess.

    The 'keeping the film flat' requirement isn't all that easy to accomplish with a non-drum scanner. With a cylinder, wet-mounting pulls the film onto the drum. This doesn't happen wet-mounting to a flat surface. I've had some film that would simply not lie flat without a weighted cover sheet.
    Also true-- I specifically mentioned wet mounting, but didn't go into too much detail. Wet mount is also possible with the Epson, in a couple of different ways, and does appear to enhance contrast and color. Once you've gone to the trouble of mounting to a smooth, continuous surface with a fluid + mylar sandwich, and removed all the air, however, you're going to have to work to prove that centripetal acceleration improves the contact by any significant amount. Curled film will always be a challenge.

  2. #22
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    It not centripetal acceleration, it's the pulling the Mylar tight over a curved surface and taping it down. Pulling laterally in the case exerts a significant drum-ward force on the film. With a flat bad, pully the Mylar tight produces much less downward force. I've been wet-mounting film on a flatbed for about 15 years....
    May tomorrow be a better day.

  3. #23
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    The V850 film holder adjusts the height of the film for best focus. The holder also presses the film to an ANR glass above it to keep it flat. These are two advancements of my V850 over my V600.

    Epsonscan program can select R G or B to dropout or color enhance when scanning BW film in grayscale (8 bit) . I've never used it and don't know what it's for. Maybe someone else can explain.

  4. #24

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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    It not centripetal acceleration, it's the pulling the Mylar tight over a curved surface and taping it down. Pulling laterally in the case exerts a significant drum-ward force on the film. With a flat bad, pully the Mylar tight produces much less downward force. I've been wet-mounting film on a flatbed for about 15 years....
    My mistake-- I had it in my head it was taped to the inside of the drum, and I was confused.

    Pulling the mylar tight on a flat mounting surface produces no downward force-- pulling it tight on a convex surface will produce a flex in the material, but once it's taped, the only force is going to be the flex of the negative (ie, the effort to return to it's natural shape). Whether that's greater than the cohesion of the mounting fluid, I do not know.

    Still. Wet mount on either flat or curved, is going to produce better results than dry mount, I think we're in agreement there. My primary interest is 120 and 4x5, both of which, I've been very fortunate so far to have very flat negatives.

  5. #25

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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    The V850 film holder adjusts the height of the film for best focus. The holder also presses the film to an ANR glass above it to keep it flat. These are two advancements of my V850 over my V600.

    Epsonscan program can select R G or B to dropout or color enhance when scanning BW film in grayscale (8 bit) . I've never used it and don't know what it's for. Maybe someone else can explain.
    True, in all regards. However, the v800/850 holders are still "stepped"-- 5 steps instead of 2 (and an irritating tendency to shift when I'm loading film), but the screw-type adjuster on the (for instance) betterscanning holder, is superior. Unfortunately, he's still apparently either catching up, or incommunicado.

    In the case of the Howtek, it's got multiple sensors for each color, and (I assume) uses the rotating drum to pass the negative across each sensor, meaning each 1/4000th of an inch of negative passes over three sensors, instead of the Epson which uses 1 sensor to decode all 3 colors at once (which can be done, but it's effectiveness is entirely based on the algorithms that are trying to recreate that color based on three (four-- RGGB) adjacent grayscale readings).

    The native resolution of the v800/850 appears to be 3200 PPI (in the central high resolution band), with it appearing to be able to do a "pixel shift" type maneuver to reach 6400 PPI. 12,800 PPI is just making up (interpolating) pixels to go in between the 6400 PPI results. If it did three pixel shifts (one for R, G and B) it might produce a more detailed scan, but otherwise, the effect of the bayer demosaic process will reduce the resolution slightly. By scanning at a higher resolution and "binning" the results down to a lower resolution, Steve is effectively raising the signal-to-noise ratio of his scans, and throwing out some of the less reliably interpolated results.

    In theory.

    My biggest gripe with the state of film scanning in 2020 is that the difference in RAW processing between my 2007 Canon EOS 30D and my 2019 EOS 90D is truly breathtaking-- the difference in sensor processing between the Epson v700 from 2006 and my Epson v800 from 2015 (purchased this year) is... Not much.

  6. #26

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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    ... With a flat bad, pully the Mylar tight produces much less downward force...
    Pulling with too much force increases the risk of breaking the glass. And distorts the mylar surface causing newton rings..

  7. #27

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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by grat View Post
    ...My biggest gripe with the state of film scanning in 2020 is that the difference in RAW processing between my 2007 Canon EOS 30D and my 2019 EOS 90D is truly breathtaking--
    This probably tells us something else - for how long DSLR makers scammed consumers until they , makers, figured out how to make digital cameras that produce quality images.

    And btw, if you are looking for drum-scanner like image quality without running a drum scanner get one of the high-end flatbeds (for 4x5 and up - anything from a Juzz Plus and up will do a great job on both color positives and B&W negatives. If color negatives is your thing then you will need an Eversmart Pro II and up; For 135 and 120 film you will need either an Eversmart Supreme or an IQSmart). They are old, bulky, cost some money but they work and deliver. People shoot large format film for a reason (cameras and lenses are also bulky and heavy), otherwise everyone will be using 35mm cameras with one 28-300mm zoom lens, right?

  8. #28

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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeyT View Post
    This probably tells us something else - for how long DSLR makers scammed consumers until they , makers, figured out how to make digital cameras that produce quality images.
    Personally, the 30D, while only 8mp, and "feature limited", still produces some great images. The dynamic range is a bit less, and you'll never produce a massive print from it, but for up to 4k screens, the resulting images still hold up very well.

    The 90D, by contrast, produces 4 times the resolution, using the same sensor size, and has higher bit-depth on the RAW files. The low light performance, and high ISO performance is bonkers. And then there's all the processing-- built in HDR, focus-stacking, auto-bracketing, 4K video. It reached the point where I feel like I've got all the tools I need for highly technical photos, but I'm far enough removed from the process of making an image that when lockdown hit, I decided it was time to go back to film.

    And btw, if you are looking for drum-scanner like image quality without running a drum scanner get one of the high-end flatbeds (for 4x5 and up - anything from a Juzz Plus and up will do a great job on both color positives and B&W negatives. If color negatives is your thing then you will need an Eversmart Pro II and up; For 135 and 120 film you will need either an Eversmart Supreme or an IQSmart). They are old, bulky, cost some money but they work and deliver. People shoot large format film for a reason (cameras and lenses are also bulky and heavy), otherwise everyone will be using 35mm cameras with one 28-300mm zoom lens, right?
    All of those are well obsolete, with parts being increasingly rare. I'll pass thanks.

    At the moment, I'm working on a system involving the aforementioned EOS 90D and a quality macro lens. Preliminary testing is giving results in the neighborhood of 6000 PPI (stitched, obviously). The goal is to automate the image taking process using a stepper-driven X/Y platform. So far, the results have been promising-- a bit mixed, but I suspect that's largely the result of the quality of the negatives I'm working with.

  9. #29
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by grat View Post
    . The goal is to automate the image taking process using a stepper-driven X/Y platform.
    Yep. Some of us did that. Many years ago now.
    May tomorrow be a better day.

  10. #30

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    Re: Another Comparison of the Howtek VS V850

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    Yep. Some of us did that. Many years ago now.
    How'd it work out?

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