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Thread: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

  1. #41

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Ken, if I may ask, which specific Eizo 24” did you go with?

    I’ve been trying to decipher some of the Eizo specs. There are two current “pro” (CG series) models. The 2420 and the 247X. The X model is another step up, with more colour modes, a “higher level” calibration sensor and LUT - which Eizo says results in better colour mixing/more neutral greys and shadow detail. Perhaps overkill.

    Of course I’m not quite ready to buy anything since I don’t really know anything yet

    https://www.eizo-apac.com/static/upl...fveqiycwkl.pdf

    https://www.eizo-apac.com/blog/which...oredge-monitor

  2. #42

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Sergey: IF you wouldn't mind my asking, HP Designjet is discontinued here and the replacements have an inkset cut to 4, 6 and at most 9 inks (mega priced units). Ebay has some. But there seems to be a VERY active market in electronic replacement boards. May I ask how long you've had your printer, how well has it behaved, and what print software you're using? Seems like you got one just before HP went a different route in development. From the outside (the Canon / Epson eco system), HP seems more focused on cost and production than "Fine Art"... so just wondering more about your experience with monochrome printing in particular, and whether you're using matte papers, too. Thanks!

  3. #43

    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R View Post
    Of course Iím not quite ready to buy anything since I donít really know anything yet
    That's been my personal state of affairs since, maybe, 1995. Just to chime in, I am in the market for a Mac Mini--as you might have seen, the late 2020 models are the first to use Apple's proprietary processor (i.e. non-Intel chip). They're getting great reviews from the early adopters, though the prospect of being Tim Cook's beta tester is giving me pause.

    Likewise, I'm also interested in the different "trim levels" of the Eizo and NEC monitors--I get the impression that the actual panels are the same, with the difference being in the calibration options and few hardware bells-and-whistles like monitor hoods, etc. Good luck with the search!

  4. #44

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Thanks for the feedback, CreationBear.

    I really like the prospect of the Mac Mini. It is essentially the guts of the latest Mac Book Air. Another Covid project for me has been to begin learning CAD/CAM software. Thus far I have been using app. versions on the iPad, but in conjunction with my newfound interest in the hybrid approach photography, I think it is time for me to get a computer. I’ve never actually owned one personally, having always just used the laptops they give us at work.

    The Eizo screens certainly ain’t cheap, but to be honest, not as expensive as I assumed they would be. I know a few people who use them, mostly for design and video though, so aside from having it narrowed down to the CG, I’m not sure if I need the X model or not. I’m just not knowledgeable enough yet when it comes to colour spaces/gamut/modes/whatever, calibration etc. yet. I probably don’t need the X, but then again once you’re in for $2k maybe a few extra hundred $ is worth it for the X.

    Michael

  5. #45

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R View Post
    Ken, if I may ask, which specific Eizo 24” did you go with?

    I’ve been trying to decipher some of the Eizo specs. There are two current “pro” (CG series) models. The 2420 and the 247X. The X model is another step up, with more colour modes, a “higher level” calibration sensor and LUT - which Eizo says results in better colour mixing/more neutral greys and shadow detail. Perhaps overkill.

    Of course I’m not quite ready to buy anything since I don’t really know anything yet

    https://www.eizo-apac.com/static/upl...fveqiycwkl.pdf

    https://www.eizo-apac.com/blog/which...oredge-monitor
    Before buying anything, I'd order a test print from Piezography. Perhaps this process should be approached from the print, backwards. That will certainly save you money.

    IMHO, the monitor is not the most important component: we can work around it if necessary. It's the printing "engine" that matters.

    I bought a CG 2420. The difference between it and my iMac retina display is NOT like night and day. It's simply incrementally better, mainly in the low values. With my 2017 iMac and its 4K Retina display, you can't discern the lowest values on this target, but with my EIZO you can just barely see them. Perhaps they've improved things in the X model, to the point where the difference is more dramatic.

    I worked for years with the iMac and other monitors, turned the brightness way down and profiled them with a third-party calibration tool. I only recently got the EIZO and could live without it as long as I had the rest of the workflow.

    Whatever monitor you consider (for monochrome at least), I refer you to these articles https://shop.inkjetmall.com/blog/ink-on-paper-blog-2/post/the-k7-standard-and-monitor-display-systems-1310 and https://shop.inkjetmall.com/blog/ink-on-paper-blog-2/post/the-proof-of-piezography-1471

    For busy print shops running jobs on different stocks, the HP sounds very helpful: you load any paper you want, press a button, and you've got a custom profile. That's brilliant. On the other hand, a very good RIP like ImagePrint (already mentioned) might be a fine solution, if they support many printer/paper combinations and their profiles are superb. With a good RIP, you can use any printer they support, in a friendlier price range. No need to profile or purchase profiles or profiling equipment - or pay for a built-in profiler every time you buy a printer.

    So my next lines of investigation are the HP Z line, and real RIPs.
    Last edited by Ken Lee; 6-Dec-2020 at 12:34.

  6. #46

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Thanks, Ken. Yes, particularly regarding the potential purchase of a pro display, I think working backward from the print is the right approach. I have much - pretty much everything - to learn, and don’t want to be sorry.

  7. #47

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Comparing my iMac Retina display to my EIZO, it seems that the Retina display has a bit more color saturation and clips the lowest 5-10% of the brightness scale, sending it to 0. This makes most images feel more "snappy", which many people appreciate. Given Apple's abundant technical resources, it wouldn't surprise me if this "snap" is created on purpose and if future versions of the Retina display retain this... feature.

    However, with monochrome images where we only have the gray scale (or toned gray scale) as our artistic palette, some of the most interesting parts of the image can be lost.

    This is not unlike what I experienced back in the early 1970's when comparing darkroom prints made with my Beselser enlarger with its condenser head, to Fred Picker's Aristo cold light prints. In my prints, the highlights were clipped to pure white: just the opposite effect... the Callier Effect.

    Back then, people liked the "crisp" look of condenser prints but Ansel and Fred (who learned from Ansel) preferred to get the entire tonal scale from the negatives they worked so hard to produce. They wanted their enlargements to match their contact prints.
    Last edited by Ken Lee; 6-Dec-2020 at 15:10.

  8. #48

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Quote Originally Posted by roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau View Post
    Sergey: IF you wouldn't mind my asking, HP Designjet is discontinued here and the replacements have an inkset cut to 4, 6 and at most 9 inks (mega priced units). Ebay has some. But there seems to be a VERY active market in electronic replacement boards. May I ask how long you've had your printer, how well has it behaved, and what print software you're using? Seems like you got one just before HP went a different route in development. From the outside (the Canon / Epson eco system), HP seems more focused on cost and production than "Fine Art"... so just wondering more about your experience with monochrome printing in particular, and whether you're using matte papers, too. Thanks!
    I run mine for almost 12 years now and practically maintenance free (had to replace belt, swap loud OEM fan for a silent one and replace a couple of failed printheads). All the needed parts were available brand new on the bay at a very reasonable price. There is service manuals available and they include everything from taking the thing apart piece by piece to putting back together and running all the required re-calibrations from service menu. Turns the machine into fully user-serviceable.
    There are also a White Paper from HP on how to create paper present for practically any paper out there. Plus if you are into alt processes there is a special preset available from HP to print digital negs on film.
    Could not be happier with the output on both glossy and matte and have never considered any other printer. Print from PS through the HP printer driver.
    Does not require any print heads or cartridges swapping between glossy and matte. Survived a major relocation. Never clogged even after months of idle.
    The on-board Spectro photometer together with the HP Color center utility that comes with the printer allow to profile any other printer too.

    I never looked seriously at the replacement (Z9), due to the above reasons, but here is a good review from a reputable source https://neilsnape.com/hp-designjet-z9-plus-dr-review/

    Hope this helps,
    SergeyT

  9. #49

    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Quote Originally Posted by h2oman View Post
    A friend gave me his Epson 3800, and I already have one of my own. I have used mine for both color and B&W printing, using the Advanced Black & White mode for the latter. I've been happy with the results, but may not be as discerning as others.... Will I be happier with the results than I am with those from the Epson ABW?
    I have not seen a result that convinces me it would be worth the effort. Although I don't doubt Ken Lee when he says you can see a difference in his shallow depth of field flower picture between reg epson and piezo. But I really wonder if it would be discernible in a picture with everything in focus. In art school, a stubbornly dedicated teacher had us all doing piezo prints -when I look back at the prints now, they look pretty bad, though this was doubtless the epson drivers and heads circa 2002. But I think the modern epson drivers and heads have gotten so good, (and I'd include the 3880 in that) that really all it seems you're picking up is the Carbon archival claim....How's the Yogi Berra quote go 'If it ain't broke....'

    I also think fancy monitors are overrated, unless you're using one as the final object to display your photograph on. (then they're not). I still use a 2008 Lacie 321 monitor, I never calibrate it, and simply use it in the factory srgb setting. Anything that is lacking in my prints is a result of my poor technique making the picture, or failure to visualize how I want my final print to look, nothing to do with my monitor. I did get a new computer this year and it took quite a bit of effort to make my 2019 macbook pro speak nicely with that old lacie monitor. Yes, it would be great to have an Eizo 4k. Just like it would be great to have an Ebony non-folding 5x7. After finally finding the right adapter after 7 or 8 tries to make the new macbook speak to the old monitor, my solution to get more screen real estate was to buy a $270 portable monitor made by Gechic and rig up a clamp and holding system next to my lacie and use it as a 2nd monitor to hold the photoshop tool palettes.

  10. #50

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    Re: Piezography: Talk me into/out of it

    Ken, I’m wondering why you’d be looking into HP etc. versus sticking with Piezography (besides flexibility perhaps).

    Michael

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