Disastrous Consequences (solved: fog with Intrepid lensboard)

[Max Grew]

Unbelievably, the lens board appears to be the problem. It is a genuine Intrepid lensboard and it isn't lightproof. I put a flashlight up against the lensboard and it just shines through. Attachment 208383
It sure looked light proof. I'm aghast. I will let Intrepid know about this.

Hello, I believe Naomi has all ready spoken to you about this but I just wanted to personally apologise that you received a faulty lens board, they are supposed to have a rubberised light proof backing (similar material to our bellows) and the ones you received did not have the backing applied. I'm really sorry this wasn't spotted before they were sent out. We have been through all our current stock of lens boards and can confirm they are all light proof. We will have some replacement boards on the way to you tomorrow and more than happy to add in a box of film to make up for the lost sheets.

If you have any questions feel free to reply to me on here or Naomi's email

- Max

[Duolab123]

Wow, that's a fast response from a supplier. Well done.

[Bernice Loui]

Not impressed. Very possible reason for using FR4 which is a printed circuit board material very common in the electronics industry is cost. FR4 is low cost and easy to have made in the shape needed due to the widely availability of manufacturing facilities and low cost for the finished part. There is no possible way FR4 is light tight as delivered or painted. If rubberized, that coating has a very good possibility of developing pin holes light leaks as the material ages and flakes off in unpredictable ways. This is every reason to never used any lens boards made with this material and coated with any material.

Given the cost of photographic materials, resourced required to make images and the fact images made could be near impossible to replicate, the risk of a pin hole or worst light leak due to a known problem lens board design is not tolerable in any way.

IMO, ditch the problem maker, apply what is needed to get a proper lens board made of aluminum or wood as these are well proven lens board materials with a record and history of being durable-reliable.

Any manufacture that is willing to sell a product like lens boards made of FR4 then coated says much about the company and those involved with their product design and manufacturing.



Bernice

[Max Grew]

Not impressed. Very possible reason for using FR4 which is a printed circuit board material very common in the electronics industry is cost. FR4 is low cost and easy to have made in the shape needed due to the widely availability of manufacturing facilities and low cost for the finished part. There is no possible way FR4 is light tight as delivered or painted. If rubberized, that coating has a very good possibility of developing pin holes light leaks as the material ages and flakes off in unpredictable ways. This is every reason to never used any lens boards made with this material and coated with any material.

Given the cost of photographic materials, resourced required to make images and the fact images made could be near impossible to replicate, the risk of a pin hole or worst light leak due to a known problem lens board design is not tolerable in any way.

IMO, ditch the problem maker, apply what is needed to get a proper lens board made of aluminum or wood as these are well proven lens board materials with a record and history of being durable-reliable.

Any manufacture that is willing to sell a product like lens boards made of FR4 then coated says much about the company and those involved with their product design and manufacturing.



Bernice

Hi Bernice,

thanks for your thoughts, rubberised was probably the wrong term to use, the coating is Vinyl, tested thoroughly and holds up well under heavy use. no need to worry about pinholes in the material. The reason we have gone with fibreglass for the boards is as you state, we can utilise the massive PCB manufacturing industry and have thousands of them made for considerably less than an aluminium or wood equivalent, a saving we pass onto the customer. Despite your assumptions about the boards they do work very well and are just as good as an aluminium or wood board, and a bit lighter too!

[Bernice Loui]

Make a correct lens board out of wood or aluminum. Cost reduction on an absolutely crucial part (lens board) is absurd.

One sheet of 4x5 color transparency film about $5-7 USD, add processing per sheet. Lose one sheet of film due to a light leak of any kind results in the lost of those materials and cost involved. More important, lost of an image that is often impossible to replicate.


~"Penny Wise _ Pound Foolish"~


No possible way you're going to convince me a coated FR4 lens board will be as good and reliable as an aluminum or high quality wood lens board. Having been around FR4 via the electronics industry for decades, this is simply not a good idea or choice.

If the aluminum or wood lens board cost $20 - $50 or more, so be it as losing any sheet of film due to an unexpected light leak is simply unacceptable
in every condition.


Bernice

Hi Bernice,

thanks for your thoughts, rubberised was probably the wrong term to use, the coating is Vinyl, tested thoroughly and holds up well under heavy use. no need to worry about pinholes in the material. The reason we have gone with fibreglass for the boards is as you state, we can utilise the massive PCB manufacturing industry and have thousands of them made for considerably less than an aluminium or wood equivalent, a saving we pass onto the customer. Despite your assumptions about the boards they do work very well and are just as good as an aluminium or wood board, and a bit lighter too!

[Havoc]

With waterjet cutting available very easy and low cost I see no advantage in using FR4. In fact unclad FR4 might be even more expensive than plain alu as it is a less standard product than copper clad FP4. Neither is the precision used in PCB manufacturing needed. And making a .dxf of something as simple as a lens board isn't that hard. Shouldn't cost more than a few money units ($/£/€) piece.

I agree with Bernice that this is a badly inspired choice.

[Kiwi7475]

Go to eBay and buy a CNC aluminum lens board from Luland for like $13.99 free shipping.
No issues, and will last forever.

[Bernice Loui]

Cost to water jet cut FR4 or aluminum is about the same. Since the FR4 is coated, finishing cost would be very similar. Very possible raw material cost would be more for the FR4 as non-copper plated FR4 is not a standard item.


Bernice

With waterjet cutting available very easy and low cost I see no advantage in using FR4. In fact unclad FR4 might be even more expensive than plain alu as it is a less standard product than copper clad FP4. Neither is the precision used in PCB manufacturing needed. And making a .dxf of something as simple as a lens board isn't that hard. Shouldn't cost more than a few money units ($/£/€) piece.

I agree with Bernice that this is a badly inspired choice.

[Tin Can]

I second that, I have bought many lensboards from Luland

Go to eBay and buy a CNC aluminum lens board from Luland for like $13.99 free shipping.
No issues, and will last forever.

[Max Grew]

With waterjet cutting available very easy and low cost I see no advantage in using FR4. In fact unclad FR4 might be even more expensive than plain alu as it is a less standard product than copper clad FP4. Neither is the precision used in PCB manufacturing needed. And making a .dxf of something as simple as a lens board isn't that hard. Shouldn't cost more than a few money units ($/£/€) piece.

I agree with Bernice that this is a badly inspired choice.

I really do appreciate everyones opinions on this but FR4 is a great choice for our lens boards I will explain why,

Aluminium boards = Cutting (water jet or laser) + Deburring + Tumbling or Linishing + Anodising + Laser engraving our logo + high shipping cost when done at our scale = surprisingly high cost of lens board

Wood boards = it's very hard to find 2mm thick wood that can be easily held down and cut. making the 100s of boards we need each month would be impracticle

FR4 = board arrives all ready duburred, finished in black and with logo on it as this is all part of standard pre existing product manufacturing process (PCBs) they are excellent quality light weight and work just as well as any other material we have used.

We used to make boards out of aluminium using the method above, it was a pain. I wouldn't even bother trying to make them out of wood. Work holding 2mm wood is nightmare inducing. I know lots of people on here have all sorts of experience in a range of fields but as someone who has had to make literally tens of thousands of lens boards over the last 6 years the FR4 process is miles better than anything else we have tried, and we have tried all sorts! maybe its not your cup of tea but they make for great lens boards and the whole production process is so simple we would never look back.

if you are still not sure then we will have to just agree to disagree

- Max