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Thread: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

  1. #21

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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    >> If I am converting from scratch and do scan without profile assigned. Then convert adobergb.

    Assuming that you work in PS..
    When you open an image with no RGB profile assigned and discard the color profile assignment, PS assumes that your image is in your Working RGB profile and then converts from Working RGB into whatever destination profile you did chose.
    Adobe RGB is not large enough to cover all the colors that slide film can capture. Chrome Space 100, J Holmes (https://www.josephholmes.com/profiles/about-my-profiles) would be a better choice. ProPhotoRGB is another one but is less "safe".

  2. #22

    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeyT View Post
    >>
    Adobe RGB is not large enough to cover all the colors that slide film can capture. Chrome Space 100, J Holmes (https://www.josephholmes.com/profiles/about-my-profiles) would be a better choice. ProPhotoRGB is another one but is less "safe".
    Sergey, I respectfully disagree.

    Yes, Prophoto can hold more theoretical color information then Adobe 98.

    But using it or some obscure profile made by Joseph Holmes will not help Steven's files (or prints) look any better.

    Adobe RGB 98 is more than enough, and is most often too saturated for natural looking color from a well exposed color negative. For slide film, I would just leave it in Adobe 98.

    Nearly all scans from color negatives need to be assigned to srgb, in order to knock out weird crossover color and really get a neutral starting point in photoshop.

    Steven - for your original chrome, I would suggest trying the kodak ektachrome setting in DPL. Producing a file that looks similar to your original. Then if you want to make it look way less blue and more warm, do that in photoshop using levels mainly, and curves more subtly, and hue/sat last. And obviously a lot of layer masking local adjustments, (which I assume you are already doing in the files you posted?)
    Last edited by Chester McCheeserton; 2-Oct-2020 at 14:26. Reason: typo

  3. #23

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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    >> Sergey, I respectfully disagree.

    I am not going to argue. Just sharing my knowledge and experience. There were scans from positives presented in this thread as well. Quite a few commercial scanning shops used "Ekta Space PS 5, J Holmes" as their output space for a good reason. Adobe RGB is a non-starter for color negatives on a Tango. The orange and red hues captured by Tango simply do not fit into that space.

    >> Nearly all scans from color negatives need to be assigned to srgb

    I use sRGB only for small JPEGs that I intend to share electronically. My color negs are scanned as positives and get converted in PS from scanners input RGB into either Chrome Space 100 (almost always) or ProPhoto (almost never). But at the end there is not much of a visual difference between imaged proceed in either of the two. Chrome space has an advantage of being smaller than ProPhoto but still sufficient to fit most if not all colors from positive emulsions. It (or the set, to be precise) also allows to change chroma (saturation) without changing image data. Proven to work equally well with a variety of emulsions (Porta 160VC, 160, 400, 800, Ektar, Fuji 160NS, Pro 400H, Superia 1600) scanned on either CCD or drums scanners.

  4. #24
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    I use light masks and almost exclusively curves. I can sometimes have 15 or 20 layers to get subtle changes and everything I do is non-destructive so I can edit any point in the process or go back and find out where I screwed up.

    As for color space, printers today can't even fully reproduce adobergb. Not much pointing working in any expanded color space s I n e in the end you need to goto adobergb for printing. Plus, when soft proofing prior to printing you can see where prophoto is outside the gamut by a lot for even the best papers and printers. In addition the monitors I use reproduce 99.9% of adobergb so no point again working in a color space I can't print. If strictly for the web again, you are converting to srgb which means a huge compression /alteration to fit prophoto into that space. And worse, most people on the net do not use calibrated monitors and ie, chrome, Firefox, safari. Flicker, zenfolio, etc mangle the picture upon upload or display. Not saying you don't get a decent image to share thru these programs, but I print so no point in working in a space I can't reproduce.

  5. #25
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    I don't print much. So I do everything in sRGB since it gets posted on the web. Or I watch it on my 4K 75" UHD TV or monitor. My monitor is calibrated for sRGB. I have no idea what the TV is calibrated to other than what looks pleasant to my eyes. I scan color film mainly chromes or use digital photos.

    So, I haven't noticed anything bad about any of the colors. Should I change to a different color space? What advantages?

    I will be printing a book like from Blurb or another service. Does the color space matter for them? I believe they use offset printing. What color space should you use for offset printing?

  6. #26
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    I am not sure about printing a book. I would see what the printer you are using wants. If doing yourself and everything already in srgb, adobergb may be better however, you would need to soft proof to make sure it looks like you intend after converting. Most likely srgb should be fine.

  7. #27
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    IMO, a lot of the time when folks who go down the rabbit hole of different color spaces end up just wrecking their files anyway, especially at the end level of printing or online sharing. You have to have an absolute mastery of all the variables and really have your process calibrated end-to-end.

    Back when I was working at a different university I audited a class so as to use the university equipment (printers). I was using both digital files and scans. Everything I did was sRGB and I pretty much came in with edited scans/jpegs, did a couple small test prints, and then after some slight tweaks if needed made the master print. During this there was a digital color photography class also being taught and they were all instructed to use AdobeRGB throughout the imaging chain. Those poor students suffered to no end with bad color, color variability from file to print, and other issues. Several asked me "what was my secret." I told them I just use sRGB for everything. I think some of them switched w/o the instructor knowing to just using sRGB.

    Furthermore, if I send out for color prints, almost always I get a perfect representation of what's on my screen to what I get in the mail. Unless you are working with a super pro lab who's giving you a calibration profile and you are doing many test prints (and inspecting them!), anything other than sRGB is asking for a whole lot of trouble and headache IMO. And no, Blurb is not a "pro lab" by any means. The only trouble I have ever had is with accidentally sending grayscale images rather than desaturated or slightly toned "RGB color" images. That was my fault though, and I received images with very slight reddish hues in the highlights that really only I noticed when in-hand and disappeared behind glass.
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  8. #28
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    Agree. If you don’t know how to use a tool, you will end up making a mess of things. This true in any profession. You can have the best tools available. If you don’t know basics, you will ruin things every time while some with the very basic tool will produce a master.

    I studied and study color space when I can and realized the level of complexity is unbelievable, like PhD and higher level and I realized that as much as I believe I know, I still know almost nothing.

  9. #29
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    IMO, a lot of the time when folks who go down the rabbit hole of different color spaces end up just wrecking their files anyway, especially at the end level of printing or online sharing. You have to have an absolute mastery of all the variables and really have your process calibrated end-to-end.

    Back when I was working at a different university I audited a class so as to use the university equipment (printers). I was using both digital files and scans. Everything I did was sRGB and I pretty much came in with edited scans/jpegs, did a couple small test prints, and then after some slight tweaks if needed made the master print. During this there was a digital color photography class also being taught and they were all instructed to use AdobeRGB throughout the imaging chain. Those poor students suffered to no end with bad color, color variability from file to print, and other issues. Several asked me "what was my secret." I told them I just use sRGB for everything. I think some of them switched w/o the instructor knowing to just using sRGB.

    Furthermore, if I send out for color prints, almost always I get a perfect representation of what's on my screen to what I get in the mail. Unless you are working with a super pro lab who's giving you a calibration profile and you are doing many test prints (and inspecting them!), anything other than sRGB is asking for a whole lot of trouble and headache IMO. And no, Blurb is not a "pro lab" by any means. The only trouble I have ever had is with accidentally sending grayscale images rather than desaturated or slightly toned "RGB color" images. That was my fault though, and I received images with very slight reddish hues in the highlights that really only I noticed when in-hand and disappeared behind glass.
    What's the expression? If it's working don't fix it.

    A side question. Is anyone including me every going to realize whether its in Adobe RGB or sRGB, or ProPhoto, or whatever. How many colors do you need in a print or display? Isn't this sort of pixel peeking where it's not really going to make a differences other than to purists? I mean as long as the prints don't have a color cast or some other discoloring and are exposed correctly, it's going to look good.

  10. #30
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Different versions of Slide scanned on Howtek

    It really comes down to interpretation, intent and capabilities both of artist and equipment. I will say though trying to fit srgb into adobergb98 can lead to issues whereas fitting adobergb into srgb is much better. Easier to compress than to expand.

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