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Thread: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

  1. #1
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    Curious if someone knows the answer.

    With the Howtek HiResolve8000 and I am sure other drum scanners, you can create a CMS file that tells the scanner how to scan the film so the final scan saved has no software manipulation which has many advantages.

    Is it possible to do the same with the V850?. There are profiles, etc, but those are applied post scan. Would be cool if you could teach/tell scanner how to scan the film (hardware scan) vs scanning and manipulating post scan before saving file.

    The big advantage to telling the scanner how to scan with no software manipulation is your gamma curve will be linear so better set up for post-processing in programs like PS.

    I think I know the answer.

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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    VueScan can be set to save "raw" scans, which are pretty close to being unprocessed.

    https://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html...#outputrawfile

    https://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html...20.htm#topic14

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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    Silverfast also has an HDR mode that delivers RAW type files with the Epson 850.

    https://www.silverfast.com/highlights/hdri/en.html

    I use an early version of it with the Howtek 7500.

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    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    I know of those modes. I typically scan in raw mode. Why I am so debris if you can tell the scanner as a hardware setting how to scan the film thereby living it with a linear output. This would allow to have greater control over highlights and shadows prior to saving and software manipulation.

    The viewscan linear raw file provides no attempt at characterizing the film prior to scan. This means extra work when post processing.

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    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    Epsonscan allows you to scan flat. No adjustments sy all. Do all adjustments in post. Or, I set the black and white points just past the histogram and set the output to 0 and 255 before I scan. No other settings.

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    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    Ok. But that is still post scan. I am looking to do prescan.

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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    >> CMS file ... tells the scanner how to scan the film so the final scan saved has no software manipulation

    That's an interesting topic.
    Would not the CMS file be parsed and applied to the data bytes that are coming out of the ADC by a software that happens to reside inside the scanner (sometimes called "firmware")?
    Would scanner's on-board software (firmware), that was written ages ago and runs in a very resource limited space, be as flexible and powerful as standalone application such as PS? Marketing gimmicks - likely! Any practical benefits - not so sure about that.

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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Ruttenberg View Post
    ...if you can tell the scanner as a hardware setting how to scan the film thereby living it with a linear output. This would allow to have greater control over highlights and shadows prior to saving and software manipulation.

    The viewscan linear raw file provides no attempt at characterizing the film prior to scan.
    I don't understand what you mean by "characterizing the film". Other than possibly changing the exposure time to compensate for film density, what kind of manipulation of the data collection do you have in mind? What does the Aztek/Howtek software actually do to change what the hardware does in collecting the data, as opposed to processing the data after the hardware collects it but before it's written to a file?

    EDIT: OK, what I asked amounts to another version of SergeyT's question: Would not the CMS file be parsed and applied to the data bytes that are coming out of the ADC by a software that happens to reside inside the scanner (sometimes called "firmware")?

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    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    The way I understand it from Hadden at Aztec is the existing cams files are applied during the scan process prior to any software manipulation. For example there is a wide gamut uncorrected chrome cams file. Choose that and do scan. What you get is the raw scanner data. You can also do this with say the cams file for portra160.

    Most people then manipulate the scan and save it to work on later. This bakes in the gamma curve altering the data.

    By characterizing the film I mean determining its response curve. You start with the wide gamut uncorrected cams file for the film you are scanning. Then determine the 18% gray, black and white points for your film or image. Save this asa cams file.

    Next choose the cams file you just created, perform scan. What you now have is raw scanner data again, ie, it is linear, no s-curves, etc. The data is not altered. So now when processing in PS as example you are working on true raw data and not altered data which can tend to corrupt the image. Especially
    with difficult scenes and large dynamic range.

    This is similar to what I do when processing a digital image. I start with the raw linear data and go from there.

    With the Epson as far as I know, you pick a film setting, ie, how the software manufacturer interpreted that film (characterization) and applies it after the scan thereby altering the scanner raw data and baking in a non-linear response curve. So it is possible to have issues downstream.

    Starting with raw linear scanner data is way to go and the closer to your final image, the better off you are. The Howtek running DPL provides that capability. To get a hardware scan that is pretty much what you want your image to look like, but with linear raw data that is unaltered.

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    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: Epson V850 Scanner: can you save unprocessed scans?

    This might work for you, Steve. In Epsonscan, click Configuration button at bottom. On Configuration window, select middle tab, then check third button No Corrections I believe it's called. You will scan flat with no corrections. Usually you get a pretty dark image file. Then use white and black points or Levels in post processing program to bring back the exposure.

    Also, notice on the Configuration tab window the that you can adjust Gamma if you select the top button. Epsonscan normally sets 2.2 for gamma. But there are other settings which I've never used. When you select the top button, however, the program will try to color correct. If you don't want Epsonscan to automatically select the black and white points, you have to go back to the first window, select Histogram [edit=icon], and then adjust the points to 0 and 255 Input and 0 and 255 Output. (I usually set the [edit=Input] black and white points myself to right outside the histogram. [edit= and the Output points to 0 and 255]. But you said you wanted to do this in post.) Make sure Sharpening is off as that circle sometimes checks itself.

    Finally, another option for scanning uses the middle button on the Configuration window is for putting in ICC color scans from the color chrome film and CD that came with the V850. I've installed mine but I'm not sure how you select it and how it works. Maybe someone else has done that.
    Last edited by Alan Klein; 29-Sep-2020 at 04:22. Reason: correction

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