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Thread: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweight

  1. #11

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    This is just my opinion but from a practical standpoint:
    - you canít use a 450C at infinity with the Chamonix without a top hat which is painful and makes it hard to make it stable outdoors. Getting good shots even with low wind and such a long lens at the end of a 4 inch top hat is not easy, many times not possible.
    - 450C costs roughly 4 x the 400 T. Crazy!
    - if you have a 300mm, a 400mm is not that different, you can easily crop a little bit. I find 450 is really the natural step where it would be too much cropping, when weight is a factor.

    I have a 400T and a 450C. I use both but donít carry any one of them when hiking with the 4x5, I do take out the 450 C with my 8x10, which is really what itís meant for, and use a 300mm lens with my 4x5. The 400T is just too heavy and long to bring along, unless Iím just shooting 500 yards from the car, which I rarely do.

    Definitely pursuing a 350mm makes even less sense if you already have a 300mm.

    Now we can all decide how to burn dollars, but that was my decision process.

  2. #12
    Roger Thoms's Avatar
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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    Couldn’t you use an extension on your Chamonix instead of a top hat board for the Fujinon C 450mm? https://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/a...xtensionboards That would keep the lens mounted in its normal position on the front standard. You would have to make sure the the bellows was long enough.

    Roger

  3. #13

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Thoms View Post
    Couldnít you use an extension on your Chamonix instead of a top hat board for the Fujinon C 450mm? https://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/a...xtensionboards That would keep the lens mounted in its normal position on the front standard. You would have to make sure the the bellows was long enough.

    Roger
    Itís possible. With it, it can be extended to 500mm although I havenít tried it.

    I have the extension. I bought it along with the camera. Do you know how many times Iíve used it? None. Zero. Itís still in its original bag. Iíd definitely do it if I can leave it installed but then I canít use a 90mm or several other short lenses. Outdoors who wants to fiddle installing extensions and then removing them back and forth. Iíll just get closer or crop.

    Of course others may be more patient. But itís borderline practical unless you know youíre going to stick for long lenses the whole time.

  4. #14

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    Chamonix.. it's a lightweight field folder camera. Rack it out 400mm to 500mm and it's stability will be quite questionable.

    The most difficult and challenging aspect of using any longer than normal focal length lens outdoors is stability with wind and changes in wind. Longer bellows draw and lower weight the camera is, that drawn out bellows acts as a wind catching sail that will affect camera stability and image quality. Regardless of how "good" any lens might be, this will be one of the most significant image quality factors with a field folder.

    In theory a non-telephoto design lens does have better optical performance until the reality of trying to use an outfit like that in real world outdoor conditions.. only to discover how rickety it is and how difficult it is to keep even some what stable. This is why a telephoto design optic is MUCH preferred to a non-telephoto longer than normal focal length lens design on a field folder.

    As for that whole "sharpness" thing.. that alone is not any where near a good enough reasons to discount using a telephoto design LF lens on a field folder camera as there are a LOT more variables and items that can and will affect the finished print. Or again, one of the reasons why print image goals should be primary with camera being much further down the priority list.


    Bernice

  5. #15

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    Folks: Okay... sounds like for this camera, the Fuji C 450mm is probably a bust. I've shot the T 450, but only inside. No wind.
    Bernice: So are you suggesting even 300mm is too long for a folder 4X5? While there is an extension for a Chamonix... I can see the wind issues, and I've picked up a 90 to unload the 75 I bought originally as a bag bellows is a wrestling match I seem to always end up with some still sticking its way into view. But on th3 300 range, Nikor M seems to get the raves while the Fuji T seems to have a very tight tilt to it. Not that I'm tilting all that much.

  6. #16
    Eric Woodbury
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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    I've used both these lenses. I had a 400T early on. Bought it brand new for use with 4x5. It was heavy and optically my copy was a turd. I sold it within a couple of months. Now I use the 450C on 45, 57, and 810 (Chamonix and two 'dorffs). Light weight. Much sharper. Yes, long bellows and Bernice is right, that's a bigger sail. Use a shorter lens in the wind or erect you camera beside the car or tree.

    Another way to go is to use a shorter lens, 300 or 360, and crop.

  7. #17

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    Back in the 4x5 field folder days (Technika, Toyo and etc) shortest focal length lens that appears reasonable was 90mm of any brand-favor. Even with a 90mm, it was not the easiest focal length to use. If the camera has a fully extended capability of 400mm, IMO 360mm would be the absolute max as there needs to be some margin for bellows extension under real world conditions. This makes a 300mm or 12" about the longest real world focal length to use if the camera is a field folder with say 400mm of bellows. Other ways to play this game is simply crop down which will result in much the same perspective but smaller film size. 4x5 field folders are often most comfy with focal lengths of 135mm to 240mm. This is why telephoto design LF lenses were designed and serve well on lightweight field folders. Images made outdoor with a longer than normal focal length lens usually does not involve much if any camera movements. While applying camera movements with a telephoto design lens can be a bit whacky, it is not that difficult to learn and IMO, should not be the deciding factor.

    It is all a set of trade offs.

    In all cases, test the lens for possible purchase as much as possible. What is published on the web does not always apply to a specific individual lens... which could be a dud despite the rant-rave stuff posted to the web.... and what is an excellent lens for some could be absolute the wrong lens for your print goals.. There was a recent discussion about this same topic:
    https://www.largeformatphotography.i...ut-Lens-Design

    What is of absolute importance, knowing precisely what you're seeking in the finished print. Once this has been well established, it becomes easier to figure out what tools and process is needed to achieve these print goals.


    Bernice



    Quote Originally Posted by roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau View Post
    Folks: Okay... sounds like for this camera, the Fuji C 450mm is probably a bust. I've shot the T 450, but only inside. No wind.
    Bernice: So are you suggesting even 300mm is too long for a folder 4X5? While there is an extension for a Chamonix... I can see the wind issues, and I've picked up a 90 to unload the 75 I bought originally as a bag bellows is a wrestling match I seem to always end up with some still sticking its way into view. But on th3 300 range, Nikor M seems to get the raves while the Fuji T seems to have a very tight tilt to it. Not that I'm tilting all that much.

  8. #18

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi7475 View Post
    I have the extension. I bought it along with the camera. Do you know how many times I’ve used it? None. Zero. It’s still in its original bag. I’d definitely do it if I can leave it installed but then I can’t use a 90mm or several other short lenses. Outdoors who wants to fiddle installing extensions and then removing them back and forth. I’ll just get closer or crop.
    With my Arca-Swiss 4x5, I need to install the much more flexible (and shorter) leather universal bellows to effectively use any real camera movements with the 75mm or 90mm lenses. Even the 120mm is tight with the longer bellows. For the 300mm and 450mm lenses I need the longer bellows that allows nearly 20" of extension. Is all this effort in the field worth it? For me it is because I want to make the image I want to make. Yes, I'll use cropping for minor changes to the proportions of the image, if I feel the image warrants it, but I generally try really hard to get what I want on the full negative. Of course, we all have our own ways of working...this is simply what works for me.

  9. #19

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    Goes direct back to making print image goals first, lens choices second, camera third at best..

    For much of digital and smaller film format making, camera choice essentially dictated what lenses and such can be used (much less so with mirrorless digital today). There was a time when the choice of camera essentially mandated a very specific group of lenses that can be used on a given camera or why so many decided on a camera brand first then added on to the camera over time and image making need.

    For those new to view camera it appears this ideology and belief is carried on, realistically it does not really apply. As a view camera is essentially a flexi light tight box with a lens on one end and film or image recoding device on the other end, allowing nearly any optic to be attached to the light-image gathering end of this box.
    Quite possible this is where the focus on making first choice as camera comes from.

    This was some what true early on for cinema cameras, each cine camera had their own lens mount allowing each camera brand to offer specific lenses that fit their cine camera.. in time, the cinema folks and video folks essentially forced a stop to this resulting in the now common PL mount.


    Bernice



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan9940 View Post
    With my Arca-Swiss 4x5, I need to install the much more flexible (and shorter) leather universal bellows to effectively use any real camera movements with the 75mm or 90mm lenses. Even the 120mm is tight with the longer bellows. For the 300mm and 450mm lenses I need the longer bellows that allows nearly 20" of extension. Is all this effort in the field worth it? For me it is because I want to make the image I want to make. Yes, I'll use cropping for minor changes to the proportions of the image, if I feel the image warrants it, but I generally try really hard to get what I want on the full negative. Of course, we all have our own ways of working...this is simply what works for me.

  10. #20

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    Re: Fujinon C 450mm F/12 .5 (or another) to replace Fujinon T 400mm F/8 for Lightweig

    For longer lens effect (on my 4x5 Graflex RB Super D), I use a 6x6 or 6X9 back to effect...

    Big cameras can use a reducing back if a full large neg is not needed...

    Steve K

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