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Thread: Taking a class and now totally baffled

  1. #11

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    If you are looking at expansion to try for a bit more contrast take a good look at TMax 100. It can record way more than the paper will print. Is very good with plus development and subtle tonal changes with White on White subject matter.
    "My forumla for successful printing remains ordinary chemicals, an ordinary enlarger, music, a bottle of scotch - and stubbornness." W. Eugene Smith

  2. #12

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Noel View Post
    This is a good start, BUT will not give you appropriate skin tones. Development will not give you appropriate skin tones if your exposure is not correct .Since you need contrast,switch to FP4+. Take your meter reading which will place the skin on ZOne V, it needs to be on VI, or VI 1/2. SO take the reading ,then give one stop more light by opening the aperture, or slowing down the shutter. My choice in such situations is open the aperture.
    While I think that Ilford FP4+ is a good suggestion for expanding tones, I would not assume that all of the subjects Ohio will be photographing are caucasian with skin tones placed on zone VI. Once Ohio's EI for his film is established and he has locked down a development time, metering with an incident light meter will keep values consistent no matter whether the subject's skin is light or dark.

  3. #13

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    My apologies for not being clear.

    I have experience using light meters. I have experience exposing correctly, and with lighting and camera operation. I am a moviemaker but the last time I worked with film was as a photojournalist thirty years ago. I took this class as a refresher and it's been extremely frustrating, to the point where I was getting frozen with doubt. I think I'll just follow Gary's recommendations. (I'll also hold back some undeveloped images so I can adjust based on my first round of development.) I'm looking forward to trying this because it's an unfreezing.

    I don't have a problem being creative and making decisions, etc., but this has been absolutely bizarre. It's like asking someone if a sentence makes sense and getting the response, "I like lasagne." Only it'd be like, "May I ask what you meant earlier about changing the film processing time to get more tones?" and getting, "Ansel Adams liked lasagne."

    I'm kidding, but only slightly.

    And I miswrote---I have a now-open box of TMax 100. Big difference. And thanks, Willie, for the recommendation---you were probably typing as I was loading the film holders.

  4. #14

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    More dilution requires longer development times to get same contrast. To increase negative contrast you have to develop even longer. So if your subject has EVs in a range like 10.2-12.2. that is only 2 stops. You can put those EVs on zone 4-6 but then expand them during development to zones 4-7(or8) . Or develop normally for normal 2stop density contrast, then increase print contrast using variable contrast filters with higher grade numbers.

    Some of us might put those light tones on zone 7-9 then develop normally because it gives that dense negative for brighter tones (like clouds tones).
    Adventure is worthwhile in itself. ... Never interrupt someone doing what you said couldn't be done. -- Amelia Earhart
    http://www.searing.photography

  5. #15

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    If you are paying for instruction your instructor owes you clear explanations of concepts. The “white on white” reference sounds like the white tones being so far up on the log curve there is little tonal separation.

  6. #16

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    Quote Originally Posted by esearing View Post
    More dilution requires longer development times to get same contrast. To increase negative contrast you have to develop even longer. So if your subject has EVs in a range like 10.2-12.2. that is only 2 stops. You can put those EVs on zone 4-6 but then expand them during development to zones 4-7(or8) . Or develop normally for normal 2stop density contrast, then increase print contrast using variable contrast filters with higher grade numbers.

    Some of us might put those light tones on zone 7-9 then develop normally because it gives that dense negative for brighter tones (like clouds tones).
    What you write about cloud tones makes sense to me and is quite helpful. My gut says this is what the instructor meant but either really didn't articulate or I completely missed it.

    Also, the thing about dilution +time. If I'm understanding you, to expand the contrast, then 3:1 dilution + longer time, say, +20% and then +40% of the digitaltruth chart time. So if I want to expand the tonal range, the chart says TMax 100 can be processed at 1:3 dilution for 17 minutes, I could process test images at 17 minutes +20%, and then do a second test at 1:3 for 17 minutes + 40%.

    And I understand what you're saying about developing normally and using variable contrast filters. That's exactly what I planned to do with the 35mm negatives---try the basic print procedures before moving further.

    Thanks, especially for the clouds---that's really useful.

    And yes, Jim Michael, one would think the instructor would explain and yet...
    Last edited by Ohio; 1-Aug-2020 at 13:47. Reason: to say thanks to Jim

  7. #17

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
    I could process test images at 17 minutes +20%, and then do a second test at 1:3 for 17 minutes + 40%.
    I would add 20% to the +20% time not 40% to the base time.

  8. #18

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    To get a clearer separation of skintones vs. scarring you could also add the complications of colour-filters. If the scarring is purple-ish on pale skin, try a yellow filter for example, or the oft-suggested (for white skin-tones on panchro film) yellow-green. If your spouse has darker skin and a darker scar then it might be harder to separate the tones involved of course. The general idea would be to keep the relevant tones away from the shoulder of the curve (or the toe I suppose) as that could make the film representation of the tones have less separation than reality, rather than neutral or 'true'.

  9. #19

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Smith View Post
    I would add 20% to the +20% time not 40% to the base time.
    Nigel Smith, may I ask why you would use that approach?



    Quote Originally Posted by MartinP View Post
    To get a clearer separation of skintones vs. scarring you could also add the complications of colour-filters. If the scarring is purple-ish on pale skin, try a yellow filter for example, or the oft-suggested (for white skin-tones on panchro film) yellow-green. If your spouse has darker skin and a darker scar then it might be harder to separate the tones involved of course. The general idea would be to keep the relevant tones away from the shoulder of the curve (or the toe I suppose) as that could make the film representation of the tones have less separation than reality, rather than neutral or 'true'.
    MartinP, filtres are a path I want to explore for this project. I've used filters for other stuff but there's a lot of testing I'd like to do with filtering, too. Funny you bring up the idea of the tones being neutral or "true," because I'm wondering about that as well---should her scars run like lightning across her skin? Should they be subtle? I don't know yet and I'm ok with that.

    And practically speaking, I think I'm trying the processing tests first because they're the part that I've done the least. I've pushed and pulled film but never done this kind of processing for creative reasons.

  10. #20

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    Re: Taking a class and now totally baffled

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
    Nigel Smith, may I ask why you would use that approach?
    I like adding a set percentage from the last used amount. Adding 40% to the base is 16.7% more than your +20% time. If that's not enough, what's your next test... +60% of base? That will mean an increase of about 8% over 'my' +20 +20 time. So the separation is getting smaller. Based on what you're trying to achieve, I think I'd want to make the subsequent tests somewhat linear from the earlier test. You may decide the last test is too much and run a final test half way between the two. Just IMO of course

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