Hello Kumar,Originally Posted by B.S.Kumar
Ah - that is in line with the response I got a few days ago from MAC in the US : "Toyo products and part for repair are becoming very scarce."
So I guess photography has somewhat gradually turned into a side-business for Toyo, with on-demand and/or limited production batches. As long as they are still made, I'm fine with it and the VX remains an alternative to the Norma.
There is no "perfect" camera, just those that meet your needs, and you can interface the operations with easily and skillfully... There are cameras while high rated/high cost that some folks will not get the hang of, and some cheap, modest cameras that are a joy to use (depending on the individual user)...
A suggestion to get up-to-speed quickly is to find a model that has axis tilts rather than base tilts... Axis tilts mean that the lens will tilt along it center axis, which means that when you need to add to add some tilt, it will do so without changing overall focus as you tilt it, so you can try a little to see if it's working for you without changing the overall focus constantly to match the effect... With base tilt cameras, the standards move on an arc and change their focus, so you have to constantly correct for it... There are workarounds to get part of the focus, then to tilt and refocus, but it requires more time and skill... But of course possible...
You might have to consider your project as a short term "get over the hump" effort to start and finish with a camera you can comprehend and use, or different camera designs that have a greater learning curve... Define exactly what you are trying to do and match that to the great # of designs out there... General advice would be to just start with some first camera, decide what you love or hate about it, then much easier to make an informed choice for you next "dream" camera...
And there's plenty of other operations to master, such as film loading, learning to see what the camera sees, the other entire rig, exposure metering, camera operations, maintaining your vision through the process, processing/printing etc...
Less about the (bling-bling) camera, but the big "everything else" in the process...
Steve K
All of this has been super helpful! Thank you.
To be specific about why I am concerned about a few pounds of weight difference:
The project involves using the view camera as a pass through system for video as well as photography. Which is to say, we are going to be mounting a digital cinema camera to a rig with the camera and shooting video off of the ground glass. I've done this before on smaller projects in a very amateurish way, but this is a paid gig and involves actors and camera movements - which means the camera will have to be mountable on a rail dolly along with the cinema camera (we are using a relatively light one, around 2lbs). With all the rigging, lenses and two cameras, the cinematographer I am working with is requesting that the whole rig be under 20lbs - he thinks that a 7-8lbs camera will be too much to deal with.
Lens-wise I am still figuring out what kit we'll use, but I am also interested in using some rather heavy barrel lenses, which makes a reasonably low weight but sturdy camera even more important.
Right now I am thinking about going with a cheaper but heavier option (such as a Sinar A1/F1/F2 or a Linhof Color Kardan) to test the system out and make decisions about how it will operate, and then decide if we can work with that camera or if we need to shell out for one of the more premium 'lightweight' models.
Another possibility I am exploring is using a heavier 4x5 for static shots and getting a 2x3 camera for the dolly shots.
Hope that all makes sense; I know not the normal usage of such cameras in these parts (I do look forward to using said camera to take photographs as well, after this project is done, although I think MF is better suited to the way I shoot most of the time).
I'm going to suggest using a Sinar F2..
"we are going to be mounting a digital cinema camera to a rig with the camera and shooting video off of the ground glass."
~On a Sinar, mount the video camera on the Sinar rail. There are various Sinar rail components that allows this to be easily done.~
To shade the connection between Sinar ground glass to video camera, add a Sinar bellows and front standard to the ground glass end of the Sinar, there is a latch to attach a bellows to the ground glass-film holder end of the Sinar. This effectively shades the connection between ground glass to video camera allowing video images to be made off the ground glass. The extra standard supports the other end of the bellows where the video camera lens is stuck into to capture the GG image.
There are very real world reasons for this. Sinar F2 is low enough weight to meet the needs of this rig. IMO, this rig will be to frail to have any real degree of stability and this lack of stability will appear in the videos as stray movement. In the business of serious film and video production rigs are often a LOT more than 20 pounds, this is done for stability reasons and portability is a far lower consideration.. Know both stability and lightweight cannot not be achieved in a camera support system without serious fancy-dancy techno aids (they would be powered and "active).
Ditch the idea of a "light weight" field portable rig.. not gonna work that well.
Once you're into the Sinar system it is essentially a "Lego" camera system with easily available building blocks that can be added-removed as needed.
This is a VERY important aspect of a camera system that is not often considered. As for lens compatibility, Sinar has the least limitations of any camera system. Virtually any lens within the limits of the Sinar Lens board dimensions can be used. There is no real bellows or camera rail length limitations as both are completely modular. Barrel lenses can be used with a Sinar shutter, Fact is cinema zoom lenses like many of the past and present offerings from Cooke, Angénieux and others including cinema primes from Zeiss, Cooke, Schneider, Canon and many others can be easily adapted to making images on a Sinar. If the weight of the lens is significant, it is easy enough to add a lens support between the lens to rail as needed. The Sinar P front standard is rated to support lenses up to 8 pounds. Beyond that, adding a lens support to the rail can greatly increase lens weight capacity. The lens support can be made up as needed using various Sinar components. Matt boxes to support filter are extremely common in video and cinema work, simply add another Sinar front standard, bellows and what ever is needed to support the needed lens shade and filter stack.
Keep in mind Sinar parts from Norma to P are interchangeable on the same rail.
No other view camera system can offer this degree of flexibility and alterability.
Bernice
Ah, yes, this is exactly what I am looking for! I see how it would be easy to mount the camera to an extended rail with available parts. Thank you, I am going to research this further but it looks a very good system; and honestly the additional weight won't be an issue if the mounting system saves us having to build/customize something different.
I am well aware of the perils of trying to do movement with this system... We want to do some tests to make sure it is even possible to get smooth enough, but we're using rail dollies and I think it will be. I work in film professionally and have dealt with monster rigs before. It's really quite remarkable how small the cameras are getting though. We're probably going to be using a Red Komodo for the motion shots (1kg, essentially a high end action camera) and a Red Gemini (about 3kg rigged) for the static shots. This is going to be a small crew though and will involve location moves, so I am trying to avoid a set-up that is too complex to breakdown and move with.
Again, thank you everyone for your thoughts. It's been very helpful for me just to try to write down and articulate the possible concerns here...
Have all the Sinar bits to make up what could be. I'll set this up later and post an image of this set up. If this is what you're looking for, this is what is needed.
Bernice
This what you're wanting to do?
Sub the Canon mirrorless for a Red video camera. Those with a fixed focal lens to the GG is not that heavy. The Sinar P rear should support that ok. The geared Sinar P rear will allow dialing in of the Red video camera position to the GG with precision and control. Remainder of the Sinar camera system can be built up as needed from more bellows and less rail down to a bag bellows, less rail for wide angle lenses. Lens shade-mate box and filter stack in front as needed.
There are few view camera systems that can be set up this way using standard accessories.
Bernice
As a sidenote, any wide-angle lens up to about 100mm is going to produce a very pronounced hotspot on the ground-glass ; illumination will become even across the entire 4x5" above 120mm.
For the long lens, a tele design would allow to eschew all the railing and bellows and supports with only one thing to secure - the lens.
What I see above is probably going to be wobbly !
(a decade as commercial director and DoP allows me to surmise that :)
Yes on the light fall off problem with trying to produce wide angle lens images from the ground glass. Aid to that problem would be to apply one of those "center" filters designed to correct for light fall off.. That falls into needs and judgement and all related to the OP's image making needs.
That set up is not ~wobbly~.... it is EXTREMELY WOBBLY....
No one should be surprised, that was a quick Sinar demo lash-up to aid in answering the OP's question. If that set up were to be used to make useful images, the Sinar rail and all must have proper support or there is about no possible way it's gonna work at all.
Bernice
As a sidenote, any wide-angle lens up to about 100mm is going to produce a very pronounced hotspot on the ground-glass ; illumination will become even across the entire 4x5" above 120mm.
For the long lens, a tele design would allow to eschew all the railing and bellows and supports with only one thing to secure - the lens.
What I see above is probably going to be wobbly !
(a decade as commercial director and DoP allows me to surmise that
This looks like about as good as we're going to do, so I am looking for an F1/2 and associated accessories now.
We'll see how horrible the wobble is - I might have to abandon the notion of dolly shots altogether and accept that we won't be able to get stable motion with this technique, but I am eager to try.
I'll be sure to report back once I have finished the project (it may be a little while). This has been hugely helpful, and I'll may seek all of your expertise again as we move forward.
Now to settle on what lenses to try for...
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